For Pacifica - random quotes on Arabic and Qur'an

[Pacifica]

Does it? Surprising. I don't have the entire passage before me right now (I'm on my phone again) but I would have thought he was narrating his departure.

I thought so too, but it seems he went back in time a bit there, to before his departure, explaining the reasons for it.

 

[Pacifica]

I wasn't sure whether the verb was the intransitive one (second entry here) and أمرى an adverbial, or whether the verb was the transitive one (first entry in the same link) and أمرى its object—with a literal meaning like "I fastened my 'affair' etc. on...", that being an idiom meaning "I resolved to". From what you're saying I guess it's the latter...? But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Sorry, I got "first entry" and "second entry" mixed up when I first wrote the post. I've fixed it now but I'm alerting you in case you saw the unedited version.

 

[Pacifica]

I thought so too, but it seems he went back in time a bit there, to before his departure, explaining the reasons for it.

Though, wait, I guess the stuff about riding makes more sense if he is, indeed, already departing. OK, I'll turn the translation back to how it was. What confused me was the next sentence starting فحزمت as if حزمت hadn't happened yet in the previous one. Maybe it's just an Arabic thing and I was reading ف in too English/French/Latin a way.

 

[interprete]

I wasn't sure whether the verb was the intransitive one (second entry here) and أمرى an adverbial, or whether the verb was the transitive one (first entry in the same link) and أمرى its object—with a literal meaning like "I fastened my 'affair' etc. on...", that being an idiom meaning "I resolved to". From what you're saying I guess it's the latter...? But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Yes, well I'm checking only now and it happens to be a set phrase (see attached) but it's pretty transparent, as امر is often used in this kind of context.

 

[Pacifica]

Maybe it's just an Arabic thing and I was reading ف in too English/French/Latin a way.

Or maybe it wouldn't be so odd even in those other languages after all. I think I'm tying myself in linguistic knots, as I sometimes do. It just felt weird to me at first for some reason.

 

[interprete]

Though, wait, I guess the stuff about riding makes more sense if he is, indeed, already departing. OK, I'll turn the translation back to how it was. What confused me was the next sentence starting فحزمت as if حزمت hadn't happened yet in the previous one. Maybe it's just an Arabic thing and I was reading ف in too English/French/Latin a way.

Lol sorry I don't have the whole text right now and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

 

[interprete]

Ok so I went back and I think it all happens more or less simultaneously. Don't forget that ف often just means و

 

[Pacifica]

فحزمت أمرى على هجر الأحباب من الإناث والذكور، وفارقت وطني مفارقة الطيور للوكور ​

Itaque statui a caris mihi viris feminisque discedere et sicut aves nidos relinquunt ego patriam reliqui.

 

[Pacifica]

Do you think that kind-of-poetic stuff about birds, with its rhyme, was uttered as is by Ibn Battutah or do you think it's an improvement by Ibn Juzay? I would bet the latter but I guess we'll never know.

 

[Pacifica]

وكان والداي بقيد الحياة فتحملت لبعدهما وصبا، ولقيت كما لقيا من الفراق نصبا وسني يومئذ اثنتان وعشرون سنة ​

Vivebant adhuc parentes mei, et eorum desiderio angebar, sensique ego, sicut illi senserunt, aegrimoniam in discedendo; eram autem tunc duo et viginti annos natus.

 

[Pacifica]

قال ابن جزي: أخبرني أبو عبد الله بمدينة غرناطة أن مولده بطنجة في يوم الاثنين السابع عشر من رجب الفرد سنة ثلاث وسبعمائة​

Sic ait filius Guzaii: narravit mihi in urbe Granata pater Abdallae natum se esse Tingi Lunae die septimo decimo mensis Ragab Vnici anno septingentesimo tertio.

 

[interprete]

Do you think that kind-of-poetic stuff about birds, with its rhyme, was uttered as is by Ibn Battutah or do you think it's an improvement by Ibn Juzay? I would bet the latter but I guess we'll never know.

I agree that we will never know. I went back to ibn Battuta's biography and as a young adult he did study fiqh, which heavily relies on rhyme and rhythm as memory aids (study fiqh= 95% memorization of the equivalent of hundreds of pages of text). But it would make sense that Ibn Juzay would have gone out of his way to make the text sound as Ibn Juzay-y as possible, I mean if you ask Lady Gaga to sing the US anthem, she's going to do it *her* way.

 

[interprete]

وكان والداي بقيد الحياة فتحملت لبعدهما وصبا، ولقيت كما لقيا من الفراق نصبا وسني يومئذ اثنتان وعشرون سنة ​

Vivebant adhuc parentes mei, et eorum desiderio angebar, sensique ego, sicut illi senserunt, aegrimoniam in discedendo; eram autem tunc duo et viginti annos natus.

I’m not sure about the two words in bold. I don’t know either of them, but just wanted to make sure that you did read بُعْد to mean distance (éloignement).

 

[Pacifica]

I’m not sure about the two words in bold. I don’t know either of them, but just wanted to make sure that you did read بُعْد to mean distance (éloignement).

I read it as "absence", or the fact of being without them, which isn't very different from "distance" I guess... Then it felt natural to use desiderium in Latin, which means the longing for something or someone that's absent or lost. The idea seemed to be basically that he missed his parents so I went for it. Do you think I got it wrong or overdid it?

 

[Pacifica]

I guess I could simply use absentia. It would be more literal. Desiderium felt more instinctive but well, that was just my feeling and it's not like there would be something technically wrong with absentia (I think). Even distantia might be acceptable (though probably unusual).

 

[interprete]

I guess I could simply use absentia. It would be more literal. Desiderium felt more instinctive but well, that was just my feeling and it's not like there would be something technically wrong with absentia (I think). Even distantia might be acceptable (though probably unusual).

No no I'm all for avoiding literal calques, I just wanted to make sure that you were clear on بعد, since without the vowels it could be confusing...

 

[Pacifica]

وكان ارتحالي في أيام أمير المؤمنين وناصر الدين المجاهد في سبيل رب العالمين الذي رويت أخبار جوده موصولة الإسناد بالإسناد، وشهرت آثار كرمه شهرة واضحة الإشهاد، وتحلت الأيام بحلى فضله، ورتع الأنام في ظل رفقه وعدله، الإمام المقدس أبي سعيد ابن مولانا أمير المؤمنين وناصر الدين الذي فل حد الشرك صدق عزائمه، وأطفأت نار الكفر جداول صارمه، وفتكت بعباد الصليب كتائبه، وكرمت في إخلاص الجهاد مذاهبه، الإمام المقدس أبي يوسف ابن عبد الحق، جدد الله عليهم رضوانه، وسقى ضرائحهم المقدسة من صوب الحيا طله وتهتانه، وجزاهم أفضل الجزاء عن الإسلام والمسلمين، وأبقى الملك في عقبهم إلى يوم الدين
​

The PDF you gave me vocalizes that clause as الذي رُوِيَتْ أخبارُ جُوده موصولةَ الإسنادِ بالإسناد. (Before I saw that, I thought the verb was active, with أخبار being the object and موصولة the subject. :/ )

I'm not sure what to make of موصولة الإسناد بالإسناد. "The stories of whose generosities (acts of generosity) have been recounted with a chain of confirmation (evidence, the quoting of authoritative sources, isnad) by... the same isnad thing." Redundancy for the sake of emphasis, perhaps?

 

[interprete]

وكان ارتحالي في أيام أمير المؤمنين وناصر الدين المجاهد في سبيل رب العالمين الذي رويت أخبار جوده موصولة الإسناد بالإسناد، وشهرت آثار كرمه شهرة واضحة الإشهاد، وتحلت الأيام بحلى فضله، ورتع الأنام في ظل رفقه وعدله، الإمام المقدس أبي سعيد ابن مولانا أمير المؤمنين وناصر الدين الذي فل حد الشرك صدق عزائمه، وأطفأت نار الكفر جداول صارمه، وفتكت بعباد الصليب كتائبه، وكرمت في إخلاص الجهاد مذاهبه، الإمام المقدس أبي يوسف ابن عبد الحق، جدد الله عليهم رضوانه، وسقى ضرائحهم المقدسة من صوب الحيا طله وتهتانه، وجزاهم أفضل الجزاء عن الإسلام والمسلمين، وأبقى الملك في عقبهم إلى يوم الدين
​

The PDF you gave me vocalizes that clause as الذي رُوِيَتْ أخبارُ جُوده موصولةَ الإسنادِ بالإسناد. (Before I saw that, I thought the verb was active, with أخبار being the object and موصولة the subject. :/ )

I'm not sure what to make of موصولة الإسناد بالإسناد. "The stories of whose generosities (acts of generosity) have been recounted with a chain of confirmation (evidence, the quoting of authoritative sources, isnad) by... the same isnad thing." Redundancy for the sake of emphasis, perhaps?

Sorry for the silence, Covid paid me a visit.
I honestly can’t tell how I would have read it spontaneously, but the suggested vocalization makes mor sense to me. موصول is a technical term in علم الحديث describing when a chain of transmission is uninterrupted all the way to the source (if memory serves), so it would make sense that it is here used as an adjective describing the أخبار

As for الإسناد بالإسناد it reminds me of this hadith:
لَتَتَّبِعُنَّ سَنَنَ مَن قَبْلَكُمْ شِبْرًا بشِبْرٍ، وَذِرَاعًا بذِرَاعٍ، حتَّى لو سَلَكُوا جُحْرَ ضَبٍّ لَسَلَكْتُمُوهُ، قُلْنَا: يا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، اليَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى؟ قالَ: فَمَنْ؟
where شبرا بشبر, ذراعا بذراع means something like ’exactly’ ’painstakingly’ etc. so I think what is meant by مصولة الإسناد بالإسناد is that isnad after isnad, accounts of his noble character are constantly confirmed.

 

[kizolk]

Covid paid me a visit.

Ah, that sucks. Hope everything's reasonably ok for you!

 

[interprete]

Ah, that sucks. Hope everything's reasonably ok for you!

Thank you! I spent two days in hell and then suddenly felt much better. It just looks like the end of a big cold now.