Vocābāmus, Amīcōrum. What's the pronunciation and rule?

[EnitLee]

I've just started learning (2 lectures in at uni), and I have some questions about accents and long/heavy syllables. The rule is, if the penult is long, accent that. But in my book (Swedish: Tidner, Latinsk Grammatik) there was the example of the two words in the title, where the antepenult is also long. I can't imagine it's pronounced Vocaabaamus, Amiicoorum, it's just too clunky and surely wouldn't have survived daily use. So, how are they pronounced, and what's the rule (or just maxim) for pronouncing such words?

 

[Pacifica]

The vowels with macrons are all long, so those words are indeed pronounced something like vocaabaamus and amiicoorum; but only the penultimate syllable is stressed (vo-caa-BAA-mus, a-mii-COO-rum).

 

[Glabrigausapes]

I've just started learning (2 lectures in at uni), and I have some questions about accents and long/heavy syllables. The rule is, if the penult is long, accent that. But in my book (Swedish: Tidner, Latinsk Grammatik) there was the example of the two words in the title, where the antepenult is also long. I can't imagine it's pronounced Vocaabaamus, Amiicoorum, it's just too clunky and surely wouldn't have survived daily use. So, how are they pronounced, and what's the rule (or just maxim) for pronouncing such words?

It's difficult for speakers of languages without phonemic vowel length to imagine that languages like Latin really sounded the way they did, but the reality is that some languages still do. But the distinction is almost always not as obvious as we expect. Japanese, for example, has long and short vowels, but if you listen to such minimal pairs as sono tori ['that bird'] and sono tōri ['that is correct'], you'll notice that the latter doesn't sound inorganic/contrived at all.

 

[EnitLee]

It's difficult for speakers of languages without phonemic vowel length to imagine that languages like Latin really sounded the way they did, but the reality is that some languages still do. But the distinction is almost always not as obvious as we expect. Japanese, for example, has long and short vowels, but if you listen to such minimal pairs as sono tori ['that bird'] and sono tōri ['that is correct'], you'll notice that the latter doesn't sound inorganic/contrived at all.

It's not that Swedish (or English for that matter?) doesn't have long or short vowels, just that having an unaccented and an accented long vowel next to each other is rare and difficult. The unaccented long vowel by itself feels unnatural (eg. vocō), but vocābāmus makes it significantly worse.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

Those combinations, I think, felt strange to me at first, but became less so as I got accustomed to them, and now have become very comfortable for me. And will for you too, EnitLee, I hope! Welcome to the forum!

 

[Clemens]

It's not that Swedish (or English for that matter?) doesn't have long or short vowels, just that having an unaccented and an accented long vowel next to each other is rare and difficult. The unaccented long vowel by itself feels unnatural (eg. vocō), but vocābāmus makes it significantly worse.

I don't know Swedish, but in English long and short vowels are dictated by the surrounding phonological environment, and stress plays into it, whereas in Latin they are phonemic, as they are in Japanese or Arabic. A good place to get an idea of how this might sound would be to listen to Japanese words on Forvo. Compare Tōkyō and Kyōto, for example, or listen to Ōsaka or shītake. The last two are especially useful because you have a long vowel which is not stressed, followed by a stressed short vowel. (Stress is much less prominent in Japanese than in English, but it does exist.)

When I was in a position to speak Arabic more often, one of the mistakes I commonly made was unconsciously lengthening vowels according to English phonology; that is, lengthening them by position or surrounding sounds rather than according to the Arabic system.

 

[kizolk]

(Stress is much less prominent in Japanese than in English, but it does exist.)

Are you referring to the pitch accent? I don't think I've ever heard of a stress in Japanese, nor of the pitch accent referred to as "stress", although maybe you're using that word in a general sense.

 

[Clemens]

Are you referring to the pitch accent? I don't think I've ever heard of a stress in Japanese, nor of the pitch accent referred to as "stress", although maybe you're using that word in a general sense.

Pitch accent is a form of stress, linguistically speaking. In English, stress is marked by pitch, volume, vowel length, and lack of vowel reduction, and some effects on surrounding sounds. In Japanese, it's marked by pitch.