Violin label

[john abshire]

I want to translate “Copy of (violin made by) Nicolo Amati 1658” (what is in parentheses is omitted)
I am thinking;
Exemplum, i or imitatio, oris = copy.
Of Nicolo Amati = genitive of the name
Then;
Exemplum Nicoli Amatii = “copy of Nicolo Amati”
?

 

[EstQuodFulmineIungo]

I think Niccolò is better translated with Nicolaus. That's how also Copernicus and others called themselves. Amati with one i, because the surname is already a genetive probably.

"Imitatio Nicolai Amati M DC LVIII"

 

[john abshire]

I think Niccolò is better translated with Nicolaus. That's how also Copernicus and others called themselves. Amati with one i, because the surname is already a genetive probably.

"Imitatio Nicolai Amati M DC LVIII"

For “copy of A. Stradivari 1720”
Exemplum A. Stradivari 1720
?
Exemplum Instead of imitatio?
(Example sounds better than imitation)

 

[Andrea Vitoripa]

For “copy of A. Stradivari 1720”
Exemplum A. Stradivari 1720
?
Exemplum Instead of imitatio?
(Example sounds better than imitation)

It can be a mistake to think that Latin words carry the same connotation as the English word derived from them. In English "imitation" most often implies something cheaply made or not as well done as the original, but I don't believe the word "imitatio" in Latin carries that same connotation.

I'm not much of an expert, though, so take my interpretation with a grain of salt.

 

[john abshire]

It can be a mistake to think that Latin words carry the same connotation as the English word derived from them. In English "imitation" most often implies something cheaply made or not as well done as the original, but I don't believe the word "imitatio" in Latin carries that same connotation.

I'm not much of an expert, though, so take my interpretation with a grain of salt.

I am aware of what you are saying. Sometime earlier I had suggested imitatio and exemplum to mean “copy”, as in “this violin is a copy of one made by Stradivari in 1720”. The reply was “imitatio” conveyed the meaning better than exemplum. However, in the dictionary exemplum can also mean copy, example, reproduction, etc., and 99.9% of people who see the label have no Latin background, but do know what imitation means, and what it implies. So my question is really; is exemplum close enough so that it is correct Latin?
My entire label reads; “Johannes Abshire Walhallensis faciebat annos 2023”; then the 3rd line; “exemplum A. Stradivari 1720”
?

 

[Andrea Vitoripa]

I am aware of what you are saying. Sometime earlier I had suggested imitatio and exemplum to mean “copy”, as in “this violin is a copy of one made by Stradivari in 1720”. The reply was “imitatio” conveyed the meaning better than exemplum. However, in the dictionary exemplum can also mean copy, example, reproduction, etc., and 99.9% of people who see the label have no Latin background, but do know what imitation means, and what it implies. So my question is really; is exemplum close enough so that it is correct Latin?
My entire label reads; “Johannes Abshire Walhallensis faciebat annos 2023”; then the 3rd line; “exemplum A. Stradivari 1720”
?

I don't think "exemplum" would be incorrect, I guess it just hurts my heart a little when I see someone going with a Latin word that less accurately captures the meaning they intend, because they don't like the sound of an English cognate. If your primary concern is to make it understandable to English-speakers, wouldn't it be better to just put it in English?

Of course it's your violin, so do as you see fit, just my humble two cents.

 

[john abshire]

I don't think "exemplum" would be incorrect, I guess it just hurts my heart a little when I see someone going with a Latin word that less accurately captures the meaning they intend, because they don't like the sound of an English cognate. If your primary concern is to make it understandable to English-speakers, wouldn't it be better to just put it in English?

Of course it's your violin, so do as you see fit, just my humble two cents.

I see what you mean. I wish now I had used imitatio, and I will on the next one. It is also imitatio A. Stradivari 1720.
What puzzles me is that in the dictionary both words mean copy, or can. Imitatio = imitation; mimicking; copy. Exemplum = sample; example; precedent; warning; punishment; portrait; copy.
If you exclude the alternate meanings, imitatio = imitation or copy ; Exemplum = sample or example or copy. From that Exemplum seems to fit better. However, imitatio doesn’t have as many of the possible the alternate meanings. Is this why you are saying that imitatio is a better choice? (And is that a good rule to use when choosing the best Latin translation, in general?)

 

[Andrea Vitoripa]

I see what you mean. I wish now I had used imitatio, and I will on the next one. It is also imitatio A. Stradivari 1720.
What puzzles me is that in the dictionary both words mean copy, or can. Imitatio = imitation; mimicking; copy. Exemplum = sample; example; precedent; warning; punishment; portrait; copy.
If you exclude the alternate meanings, imitatio = imitation or copy ; Exemplum = sample or example or copy. From that Exemplum seems to fit better. However, imitatio doesn’t have as many of the possible the alternate meanings. Is this why you are saying that imitatio is a better choice? (And is that a good rule to use when choosing the best Latin translation, in general?)

To be completely honest, I couldn't really explain to you the "why" of imitatio being better; based on my own knowledge alone I wouldn't have said anything, but seeing as it lined up with what some others had already said on this forum, the only thing I really wanted to add was that I saw it as perhaps a mistake to choose or reject a particular word based on the implications associated with its English cognate.

To me "exemplum" might almost seem to carry the connotation of a non-functioning copy, something meant for demonstrative purposes, and not really to be used, like a replica in a museum, whereas "imitatio" seems to carry more of the implication of something intended to functionally serve the same purpose. But I'm not nearly as advanced as some of the other folks on this forum, so take my interpretation with a grain of salt (especially since I could be unconsciously falling prey to the very same mistake of carrying over implications from what they sound like in English, haha.) However, if my interpretation is correct, than perhaps "exemplum" does actually make a better fit, depending on exactly what you'd like to convey. Hopefully someone else can chime in, and give a better explanation of the differences between the two words.

 

[syntaxianus]

This seems better:

secundum exemplar a Nicolao Amato fabrefactum

"after an original fashioned by Nicolo Amati"

To say a copy of Nicolo makes it sound like it is a replica of himself. It is a copy of something made by him.

 

[john abshire]

This seems better:

secundum exemplar a Nicolao Amato fabrefactum

"after an original fashioned by Nicolo Amati"

To say a copy of Nicolo makes it sound like it is a replica of himself. It is a copy of something made by him.

I don’t have that much room. Parts of it are understood. Example, the original labels of Stradivari were; Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis faciebat annos 1720. Antonio Stradivari of Cremona (Italy) was making (this violin) in the year 1720.

 

[syntaxianus]

Looks rather similar in length:

secundum exemplar a Nicolao Amato fabrefactum
Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis faciebat anno 1720

You could reduce the name to N. Amato, and fabrefactum ("crafted") to factum.
Secundum could be replaced by ad ("according to").

Ad exemplar a N. Amato factum

 

[syntaxianus]

And if you want to use secundum, there is the abbreviation scdm = secundum .

 

[Clemens]

If you exclude the alternate meanings, imitatio = imitation or copy ; Exemplum = sample or example or copy. From that Exemplum seems to fit better. However, imitatio doesn’t have as many of the possible the alternate meanings. Is this why you are saying that imitatio is a better choice? (And is that a good rule to use when choosing the best Latin translation, in general?)

The alternate meanings are precisely the clue to the nuance between the two. Imitatiō means a copy in the sense of an imitation, an unoriginal production which takes a previous work as its model. Exemplum means a copy in the sense of a reproduction of something for the purpose of having more than one physical specimen. For example, if I write a novel that shamelessly plagiarizes ideas from an existing work, this would be imitātiō. If a publisher realizes a book is selling well, and prints more copies, they aren't imitating the original novel, they're just reproducing it: exemplum.

 

[Andrea Vitoripa]

The alternate meanings are precisely the clue to the nuance between the two. Imitatiō means a copy in the sense of an imitation, an unoriginal production which takes a previous work as its model. Exemplum means a copy in the sense of a reproduction of something for the purpose of having more than one physical specimen. For example, if I write a novel that shamelessly plagiarizes ideas from an existing work, this would be imitātiō. If a publisher realizes a book is selling well, and prints more copies, they aren't imitating the original novel, they're just reproducing it: exemplum.

So it sounds like maybe I was wrong, and the Latin word "imitatio" does actually carry the connotation of being a lesser-quality, or even plagiarized version of something else?

 

[Clemens]

So it sounds like maybe I was wrong, and the Latin word "imitatio" does actually carry the connotation of being a lesser-quality, or even plagiarized version of something else?

According to Arnold, imitātiō doesn't have an inherent moral connotation. I just used the example of plagiarism to make the contrast clear.

Here's another example:
The earliest French-style gardens were copies of Italian models. (imitātiō)
I have a copy of the Bible on my shelf. (exemplum)

 

[syntaxianus]

The shortest way might be just to say "After Nicolo Amati" or "After an original of [or made by] Nicolo Amati"

The first is very elliptical indeed, but it is confirmed by modern English usage in art history, the second is suggested by Latin usage as in:

Wenceslaus Hollar (1607 -1667), Salvator Mundi after Leonardo,

Inscription:

Leonardo da Vinci pinxit, Wenceslaus Hollar fecit, Aqua forti Secundum Originale, A. 1650

(Leonardo da Vinci painting, Wenceslaus Holler did etching according to the original in 1650), 1650, etching, 10.24 x 7.09 in. (26 x 18 cm)

Photo: Christie's Website
Image from University of Toronto Wenceslas Hollar Digital Collection

<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on"> <span style="color: #073763;">Only One Original <i>Salvator Mundi</i></span></div>

Only One Leonardo Leonardo da Vinci (1452 - 1519), Salvator Mundi , c. 1500, oil on walnut panel, 25 7/8 x 18 in. (65.7 x 45...

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