Reaction to the pronunciation of v/u.

[kizolk]

I should also add that that /ɥ/ in English words does sometimes appear in the speech of some French people, particularly older people I think. Case in point: my mom :') Tɥits, le ɥik-end, etc., whereas the more standard way to say it is with a /w/. The difference with wagon for instance I would guess is that it was borrowed a long time ago, whereas week-end is probably a more recent loan.

 

[Pacifica]

I'd never heard that it was how it was pronounced in Latin, very interesting!

I don't know if it's certain. It may just be a theory among others.

Funnily enough in the traditional French pronunciation of Latin (which I suppose is pretty much the same in France and Belgium) we pronounce it /kw/.

Many people, Francophone or not, pronounce it that way. I think it's traditional in many places (everywhere?) and only dedicated followers of the restored pronunciation go for the nuit sound, maybe... (though perhaps not even all of them agree).

 

[Imperfacundus]

I should also add that that /ɥ/ in English words does sometimes appear in the speech of some French people, particularly older people I think. Case in point: my mom :') Tɥits, le ɥik-end, etc., whereas the more standard way to say it is with a /w/. The difference with wagon for instance I would guess is that it was borrowed a long time ago, whereas week-end is probably a more recent loan.

The difference can also be that a following /i/ has a strong palatalizing effect.

 

[Clemens]

We also have /w/ in words like nuit whereas you guys have some weird kind of sound there that I can't quite wrap my head around.

As if it were spelled *nouit?

 

[kizolk]

The difference can also be that a following /i/ has a strong palatalizing effect.

Very possible yes! /ɥ/ appears most frequently before front vowels and /i/ in particular, though it can also appear before /a/ in suave for instance, but those cases are rare, and a lot of speakers use /sy.av/ instead anyway.

I now remember another example of that /w~ɥ/ variation: some speakers pronounce oui /ɥi/ instead of the standard /wi/. I never understood whether that was a dialectal feature or more of an idiolectal one since it's relatively rare, but for instance one of my friends back when I lived in the Paris region, used it, and I hear it from time to time both on the TV and IRL.

Still on the subject of oui: a rather old-fashioned, colloquial way to say it is voui, which kind of makes sense since /w/ is so rare in native words word/syllable-initially. Maybe that's not the reason, but for what it's worth the only other example I can think of at the moment of word-initial or indeed syllable-initial /w/ in a native word, is ouate /wat/, but maybe there are others.

 

[Clemens]

Still on the subject of oui: a rather old-fashioned, colloquial way to say it is voui, which kind of makes sense since /w/ is so rare in native words word/syllable-initially. Maybe that's not the reason, but for what it's worth the only other example I can think of at the moment of word-initial or indeed syllable-initial /w/ in a native word, is ouate /wat/, but maybe there are others.

The only one I can think of is oindre, and I don't think that's an everyday word. A very common surname in Québec is Ouellette. It's not relevant to standard French, but speakers of very conservative Acadian French (which I think is derived from Saintongeais and/or Poitevin) use an initial /w/ where /v/ is found in standard French; thus voir is pronounced as if spelled ouère.

 

[Pacifica]

As if it were spelled *nouit?

I guess...

 

[kizolk]

The only one I can think of is oindre, and I don't think that's an everyday word. A very common surname in Québec is Ouellette. It's not relevant to standard French, but speakers of very conservative Acadian French (which I think is derived from Saintongeais and/or Poitevin) use an initial /w/ where /v/ is found in standard French; thus voir is pronounced as if spelled ouère.

Good one! Not very common indeed, the noun onction a little more though.

And ouère rings a bell, I think this kind of changes occurs in other Oïl varieties as well but I'm not sure.

 

[Imperfacundus]

Suave is borrowed from Latin, whereas a native form would rather have been *souef; cf. Old French soef, Middle French soueve (feminine). In borrowings from Latin, French consistently renders u, whether long or short, as /y/, so suave having /y~ɥ/ is to be expected. There wasn't any /w/ to begin with, as far as French is concerned.

I wonder whether there are any French words where an original /w/ may turn to /ɥ/ before a vowel other than /i/. I've also heard, incidentally, the word oui pronounced as [ɥiːç], with an 'excreted' palatal fricative. That speaker was from a suburb of Paris I believe.

 

[kizolk]

I wonder whether there are any French words where an original /w/ may turn to /ɥ/ before a vowel other than /i/. I've also heard, incidentally, the word oui pronounced as [ɥiːç], with an 'excreted' palatal fricative. That speaker was from a suburb of Paris I believe.

Not that I can think of at least. And indeed that [ç] seems to me to be a more Parisian feature. I myself sometimes use [wiç] or [wi:ç] particularly when I'm annoyed or being impatient.

 

[Clemens]

Not that I can think of at least. And indeed that [ç] seems to me to be a more Parisian feature. I myself sometimes use [wiç] or [wi:ç] particularly when I'm annoyed or being impatient.

Don't we also hear the fricative with words like bu and vu when they're at the end of a phrase or sentence, at least with Parisians? If so, maybe it has something to do with high front vowels.

By the way, and this is totally subjective, but I think the best-sounding French comes from northerners who don't sound stereotypically Parisian.

 

[kizolk]

Don't we also hear the fricative with words like bu and vu when they're at the end of a phrase or sentence, at least with Parisians? If so, maybe it has something to do with high front vowels.

By the way, and this is totally subjective, but I think the best-sounding French comes from northerners who don't sound stereotypically Parisian.

Right, it also happens with /y/. I don't think I've ever heard it with back vowels, and if we think of Japanese or standard German for instance, that phoneme does seem to be more frequently linked to front vowels for articulatory reasons.

I couldn't tell which one I like better, I try to be like a good father and love all accents the same way But I may have a slight preference for Parisian (I like its... austerity?) and southeastern/Nice accents, and I also quite like the more Francoprovençal-colored/Swiss ones.

 

[kizolk]

By the way, one of my all time favourite videos:

And this one I like even better on the languages of France. The Rhodanien (a variety of Provençal Occitan) speaker at 7:30 is just amazing:

On the same channel, the Belgian versions which are thoroughly enjoyable as well:

 

[Clemens]

Right, it also happens with /y/. I don't think I've ever heard it with back vowels, and if we think of Japanese or standard German for instance, that phoneme does seem to be more frequently linked to front vowels for articulatory reasons.

I couldn't tell which one I like better, I try to be like a good father and love all accents the same way But I may have a slight preference for Parisian (I like its... austerity?) and southeastern/Nice accents, and I also quite like the more Francoprovençal-colored/Swiss ones.

I don't have a lot of experience with Francoprovençal accents. Southern accents are charming, though. What are the characteristics of the Parisian accent that make it sound austere to you? I've heard other French speakers use the term pointu.

 

[kizolk]

haha pointu works too. I think in my case at least there are multiple factors, but I think it's mainly a question of prosody, which tends to be more neutral or monotone than in other varieties, almost cold in a sense. Also, vowels tend to be short whereas in other varieties vowels often get lengthened either for emphasis (which of course can happen in Parisian too) or even in some cases because they're phonemic. They also tend to be rather close, for instance /e o/ are frequently used where others have /ɛ ɔ /, as I think is the case for most nasal vowels, and rather tense too. Loss of the schwa also leads to more consonants clusters than in other varieties.

None of these features occur only in Parisian, but it's the fact that it has them all, in a consistent fashion, that makes it sound more austere to me I guess, but it's very subjective of course.

 

[Pacifica]

Macron's speech grates on me at times because it sounds incredibly... posh I guess? I don't know if it's a matter of accent or if it's just him.

 

[Clemens]

haha pointu works too. I think in my case at least there are multiple factors, but I think it's mainly a question of prosody, which tends to be more neutral or monotone than in other varieties, almost cold in a sense. Also, vowels tend to be short whereas in other varieties vowels often get lengthened either for emphasis (which of course can happen in Parisian too) or even in some cases because they're phonemic. They also tend to be rather close, for instance /e o/ are frequently used where others have /ɛ ɔ /, as I think is the case for most nasal vowels, and rather tense too. Loss of the schwa also leads to more consonants clusters than in other varieties.

The open/closed e continues to interest me, especially in words where dictionaries say both are possible, like essayer or examen.

When you say loss of the schwa, do you mean pronunciations like /argarde/ for à regarder?

 

[kizolk]

Macron's speech grates on me at times because it sounds incredibly... posh I guess? I don't know if it's a matter of accent or if it's just him.

Probably a bit of both? One thing I've noticed is that when he speaks in an official capacity, he doesn't sound very natural to me, as if he were trying to speak as he thinks a president ought to speak. For instance he does the classic French politician trick to make as much liaisons as possible, including optional ones that pretty much no one else does, and even that weird Chirac trick "lez [pause] (z)arbres".

 

[kizolk]

The open/closed e continues to interest me, especially in words where dictionaries say both are possible, like essayer or examen.

When you say loss of the schwa, do you mean pronunciations like /argarder/ for à regarder?

It's a fascinating subject indeed, and things are constantly changing. For instance, I speak Parisian French but I say lait [lɛ] whereas I think it would be fair to say nowadays Parisian speakers, especially younger ones (at least younger than m,e I'm 34) mostly say [le]. I don't have statistics on that, but it's evolving.

And yes, that's what I meant. It can lead to interesting sequences such as je trace /ʃtʁas/ (which again isn't limited to Parisian French, but other varieties don't have it).

 

[Pacifica]

je trace /ʃtʁas/ (which again isn't limited to Parisian French

I confirm it isn't. That kind of thing isn't unusual in my far-from-Paris neck of the woods.