Interrogative Pronouns (quis, quid)

[MrKennedy]

Firstly, my main exercise book lists the masculine and feminine singular forms as the same (quis, quem, cuius, cui, quo). The Collins Latin Dictionary and Grammar lists a separate feminine singular form (quis/quae, quam, cuius, cui, qua). You have probably seen that quis can be used as well; obviously some overlap and confusion exists with the masc form standing for the fem sometimes. Wonder if someone can add any clarity to this puzzler?

The internet doesn't seem at all sure either…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_decl ... e_pronouns
http://webpages.ursinus.edu/classics/La ... erpron.htm

Secondly, I am struggling slightly with some of the briefer questions: understanding where the subject lies and so forth. I feel a little out my comfort zone. Correct me if I am wrong but the line ''who knows?'' (in answer to the question ''who are his friends?'') would mean ''someone knows'' thus placing the verb in the 3rd person. Plu. I have ''Quis scit?''.

As always I am grateful for any help.

 

[Decimvs]

In the book I have - Learn to Read Latin by Andrew Keller and Stephanie Russel - states that the masculine and feminine forms of the nominative singular are identical.

I think that with the example that you gave, "who knows?", it might be better stated using the subjunctive mood, as if to say "Who (might) know?" Or, Quis sciat? - Which person might know? And of course here you are leaving out the direct object, maybe even a better way to say it would be

Quis hoc sciat? - Who might know this thing? Quis illud sciat? Who might know that thing? And on and on you could say who knows these things, the things, those things, or any other direct object.

You are right that the verb would be in the third person plural because when using an interrogative pronoun, you don't know what the h3ll you're talking about in this case, it could be a man, a woman.....So you are asking "WHO might know?" The pronoun is standing in for the noun. If you knew you could say "Hic vir hoc scit" This man knows this thing. But, since you don't know, and are asking, instead of saying a man/woman knows this you say "Quis" Who?

Likewise if you were to say, Who are you killing? In that case the interrogative pronoun would be in the accusative m/f. Tu ______ interficis? You don't know who they are killing, and are asking, so you insert the interrogative pronoun in the place of the object of which you are not sure about, and are asking about. Tu quem interficis? - Who are you killing? Or in other words, "You are killing WHO?"

That is why it makes sense for the masculine and feminine to be the same, and the neuter to be separate. It makes sense when you think of what they are used for, like to say "Who did you choose?" As opposed to "What thing have you done?" When you use the neuter the reader/listener knows that you are talking about "things" or at least something neuter, and not a person.

I hope that this helps. I am still learning many things myself.

 

[Bitmap]

I think that with the example that you gave, "who knows?", it might be better stated using the subjunctive mood, as if to say "Who (might) know?" Or, Quis sciat? - Which person might know? And of course here you are leaving out the direct object, maybe even a better way to say it would be

I don't actually know Latin to be that complicated with such examples. Rhetorical questions with some kind of message are usually in the indicative. "Quis scit?" sounds fine to me. Sometimes Latin is even more indicativish than our Modern languages.
"Who wouldn't know that Cicero was a great speaker" would translate to "Quis ignorat Ciceronem optimum oratorem fuisse"
Other examples of Latin being indicativish
"I would never never believed..." -> Numquam credidi
"I would have almost said..." -> Paene dixi
"It would be better..." -> melius est

et cetera

 

[Imber Ranae]

I think that with the example that you gave, "who knows?", it might be better stated using the subjunctive mood, as if to say "Who (might) know?" Or, Quis sciat? - Which person might know? And of course here you are leaving out the direct object, maybe even a better way to say it would be

I don't actually know Latin to be that complicated with such examples. Rhetorical questions with some kind of message are usually in the indicative. "Quis scit?" sounds fine to me. Sometimes Latin is even more indicativish than our Modern languages.
"Who wouldn't know that Cicero was a great speaker" would translate to "Quis ignorat Ciceronem optimum oratorem fuisse"
Other examples of Latin being indicativish
"I would never never believed..." -> Numquam credidi
"I would have almost said..." -> Paene dixi
"It would be better..." -> melius est

et cetera

Quis sciat is commonly used in Latin in the sense that we say in English "who [the heck] knows?" It's potential subjunctive, literally "who could [possibly] know?"

 

[MrKennedy]

I think I've grasped the concept of the interrogative. Thanks.

I think I will go off my text book and use the m/f singular as one and the same but I am still a bit confused about the forms given in Collins. Should I just put it down to one of the many faceted sides of Latin? (like ille, illa, illud and is, ea, id meaning exactly the same thing). I suppose it is just a matter of personal choice.

 

[Bitmap]

Quis sciat is commonly used in Latin in the sense that we say in English "who [the heck] knows?" It's potential subjunctive, literally "who could [possibly] know?"

I stand corrected then

I think I will go off my text book and use the m/f singular as one and the same but I am still a bit confused about the forms given in Collins. Should I just put it down to one of the many faceted sides of Latin? (like ille, illa, illud and is, ea, id meaning exactly the same thing).

I still don't really understand your problem. Are you sure you don't mix up nominal interrogative pronouns (quis / quis / quid) and adjectival ones (qui, quae, quod)?
Cf. Scisne quis mihi carissima sit? vs Scisne quae puella mihi carissima sit?

ille and is do not mean exactly the same thing!!!!!1111one

 

[Imber Ranae]

Perhaps the fact that quis can be used both as the masculine/feminine of the interrogative pronoun and as an alternative form of the masculine interrogative adjective has engendered some confusion. In other words:

quis [M/F], quid [N] {interrogative pronoun}

qui/quis [M], quae [F], quod [N]. {interrogative adjective}

qui [M], quae [F], quod [N]. {relative pronoun}

I would think that Collins would have the adjective and the pronoun listed separately.

 

[MrKennedy]

I have taken some liberties with the formatting but this is how it is written...

Interrogative Pronouns.
Singular..
Masc: quis quem cuius cui quo
Fem: quis/quae, quam, cuius, cui, qua.

-Collins

Interrogative Pronoun
Singular
Masc. and Fem: Quis, quem, cuius, cui, quo

-New Latin Course Part One by Marchant a Watson

ille and is do not mean exactly the same thing!!!!!1111one

Is, Ea, Id seems to mean (that, those) for the adj (he, she , it) for the pronoun. So does ille, illa, illud according to my book!

 

[Imber Ranae]

I have taken some liberties with the formatting but this is how it is written...

Interrogative Pronouns.
Singular..
Masc: quis quem cuius cui quo
Fem: quis/quae, quam, cuius, cui, qua.

-Collins

Interrogative Pronoun
Singular
Masc. and Fem: Quis, quem, cuius, cui, quo

-New Latin Course Part One by Marchant a Watson

Well, that's a bit odd. I would understand the forms quae, quam, and qua to be interrogative adjectives. But as long as you're aware that the other (non-neuter) forms of the pronoun can refer to persons of either sex, you should be fine.

Is, Ea, Id seems to mean (that, those) for the adj (he, she , it) for the pronoun. So does ille, illa, illud according to my book!

That's a simplification given for the sake of not overwhelming the beginner with complicated nuances. Though they may both be translated with the English word "that" in certain circumstances, they definitely do not mean the exact same thing, and they will often need to be translated quite differently according to the context.