Gesta Francorum

[Notascooby]

et iecerunt omnia cadavera eorum in quandam foveam et deportaverunt caesa capita ad tentoria nostra quatinus perfecte sciretur eorum numerus excepto quod oneraverunt quatuor equos qui fuerunt ad mare nuntiis amiralii de babylone delays 18:103-8

Makes sense until excepto after which I can't make much sense of it. Any help?

Also I keep seeing phrases like "cepit pavere". I assume this should be coepit? However in the next section the text has "coeperunt ascendere" so the sound change hasn't occurred here for some reason.

To make it even more confusing this sentence pops up "nosque alienare a regione romaniae sive cyriae 'adhuc autem et corrozani, capiunt" 21:29-30

I don't have a scooby what is happening here. This book goes from being ridiculously easy to very odd.

Any help much appreciated, thanks

 

[Pacifica]

et iecerunt omnia cadavera eorum in quandam foveam et deportaverunt caesa capita ad tentoria nostra quatinus perfecte sciretur eorum numerus excepto quod oneraverunt quatuor equos qui fuerunt ad mare nuntiis amiralii de babylone delays 18:103-8

Makes sense until excepto after which I can't make much sense of it. Any help?

Some words seem to be missing. I found this version:

et jusserunt desepelire, et frangere eorum tumbas, et trahere illos extra illorum sepulturas. Et ejecerunt eorum cadavera omnia in quamdam foveam, et deportaverunt caesorum capita ad tentoria nostra, quatenus perfecte sciretur eorum numerus, excepto quod equos onustos eorum capitibus quatuor fuerunt ad mare nuntiis Amiralii Babylonis delata.

From which it's a bit easier to extract some sense although it's awfully ungrammatical.

Also I keep seeing phrases like "cepit pavere". I assume this should be coepit?

Yes. Oe and ae sounded just like e in medieval Latin, and were therefore often spelled that way, too.

However in the next section the text has "coeperunt ascendere" so the sound change hasn't occurred here for some reason.

People—authors, scribes and editors—aren't always consistent.

To make it even more confusing this sentence pops up "nosque alienare a regione romaniae sive cyriae 'adhuc autem et corrozani, capiunt" 21:29-30

According to what I found online, that should read cupiunt.

 

[Pacifica]

Some words seem to be missing. I found this version:

et jusserunt desepelire, et frangere eorum tumbas, et trahere illos extra illorum sepulturas. Et ejecerunt eorum cadavera omnia in quamdam foveam, et deportaverunt caesorum capita ad tentoria nostra, quatenus perfecte sciretur eorum numerus, excepto quod equos onustos eorum capitibus quatuor fuerunt ad mare nuntiis Amiralii Babylonis delata.

From which it's a bit easier to extract some sense although it's awfully ungrammatical.

Yet another version here (more grammatical): https://books.google.be/books?id=Rb0O653oRH8C&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq="deportaverunt+caesa+capita+ad+tentoria+nostra+"&source=bl&ots=0OfJI6oVoa&sig=ACfU3U2Kcsv4kiI2B10k2L4KFD95xPv3lA&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqu5n5roP5AhUauKQKHXb0CoYQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q="deportaverunt caesa capita ad tentoria nostra "&f=false

 

[Notascooby]

The text I've got is a 1924 book printed by Clarendon press at Oxford so should be reputable. It also has a critical apparatus but if anything that's just more confusing. The introduction does say that the text is full of issues though.

Another oddity that stands out is that the author writes "charissime" at one point, which would make Arrius proud but two lines later he writes karissime. Is this two different authors or is the variation in spelling just another oddity of and odd author?

Have to say I've read 55 pages of this book and it is very good, the oddities of grammar and expression add to its charm.

 

[Pacifica]

Is this two different authors or is the variation in spelling just another oddity of and odd author?

The variation could have come for the author himself or from some scribe(s). Who can tell?

 

[Notascooby]

The variation could have come for the author himself or from some scribe(s). Who can tell?

If not you, I know not who.
Thanks for your help

 

[cinefactus]

The version on thelatinlibrary has
excepto quod onerauerant quatuor equos, de nuntiis ammirali Babiloniae, et miserant ad mare
I think this is taken from Rosalind Hill's critical edition.

adeo ut Rogerius comes pene solus remanserit had the class in fits of laughter—it too me a while to figure out why

 

[Notascooby]

Just finished this book. Took about ten hours of reading. Given the amount of oddities in this text I'm not sure I would recommend it to a novice even though it is a fairly straightforward text.

It is for the most part an easy read though so worth a look and though it can be dry it does have its moments. In a way it kind of reminds me of Caesars commentarii de Bello gallico or Xenophon's Anabasis. That is to say that it's just a straight forward narrative without much abstract philosophical stuff to get stuck on.

 

[cinefactus]

I loved it. There may be no abstract philosophy, but there are a lot of sociological observations which can be made. If you pretend you are reading French written in Latin it is straightforward

 

[Pacifica]

I smiled at how these words, put into the mouth of a Muslim, showed how totally clueless the author was about Islam:

Amodo iuro uobis per Machomet et per omnia deorum nomina...

 

[Notascooby]

There is a line from a Paul Simon song "This is the age of miracles and wonders". I always remember that line when reading medieval stuff.

There is the reality of maths and science and then there is the reality of experience. For the author of this text, prophetic visions were real, ghost armies existed etc. This is where for me the really fascinating part lies.

 

[Pacifica]

Clergymen were the authorities for them the way scientists are for us. Who knows what misconceptions we labor under today at which future generations will laugh?

 

[Notascooby]

I smiled at how these words, put into the mouth of a Muslim, showed how totally clueless the author was about Islam:

Amodo iuro uobis per Machomet et per omnia deorum nomina...

I don't think he was clueless, read chapter 22 I think that he has worded it very deliberately lol. He's taking a swipe at Islam.

 

[Pacifica]

Chapter 22 again misrepresents Islam as a polytheistic religion:

per omnium deorum nomina

I guess it's possible that the author knew it wasn't so and deliberately lied. But he could also have been clueless.

 

[Notascooby]

Chapter 22 again misrepresents Islam as a polytheistic religion:

per omnium deorum nomina

I guess it's possible that the author knew it wasn't so and deliberately lied. But he could also have been clueless.

Very possible, I just think it could be a swipe given that he puts those words in the mouth of the mother of Curbaram. She then goes on to implore her son not to fight the Christians because God is on their side.

Though you could equally say that this is further evidence that our author believed that Islam was Polytheistic I that the mother could stating that she accepts the reality of the Christian god but as separate from the god/gods of Islam.

 

[Pacifica]

I just think it could be a swipe

It is a swipe; not doubt about that. The question is whether the author believed in the truth of his own criticism (viz. that Islam was a polytheistic religion).

 

[Notascooby]

It is a swipe; not doubt about that. The question is whether the author believed in the truth of his own criticism (viz. that Islam was a polytheistic religion).

I know not. I'm inclined to think that he didn't think it. He would undoubtedly have had dealings with Muslims who had converted to Christianity. He would(I think) have been inquisitive enough to learn the basics of Islam.

 

[cinefactus]

Chapter 22 again misrepresents Islam as a polytheistic religion:

per omnium deorum nomina

I guess it's possible that the author knew it wasn't so and deliberately lied. But he could also have been clueless.

I got the impression from the work that the whole crusade was a peregrination of village idiots.

Who knows what misconceptions we labor under today at which future generations will laugh?

I can think of a few right now.

 

[Pacifica]

I could, too. But there may be more that neither of us suspects.

 

[Notascooby]

I could, too. But there may be more that neither of us suspects.

There are things that we know that we know, there are things that we know that we don't know, there are things that we don't know that we know and there are things that we don't know that we don't know.

To paraphrase Donal Rumsfeld