Although it's all completely logical according to the phonetic changes that happened.
French
- Thread starter Serenus
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It is a survival from indo-european conjugation, and it is still quite regular in French, as a composed of esse:
We see it in Classical latin:
P1: sum -> [je] suis / posum -> [je] puis
P2: es -> [tu] es / potes -> [tu] peux
P3: est -> [il] est / potest -> [il] peut
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Of course, but I mean the actual form puis, which is identical to the Old French term, and not to the more current Modern French peux. In my experience, irregularity refers to apparent irregularity, because historical linguistics usually shows that so-called "irregular" just appear to be, because of historical circumstance.
Rather than dated, I would say it is soutenu, or littéraire, which means that, while it was the common form up to Contemporary French, it is now rarely heard in common or in familiar speeches or read in common writings... (except in inversions).
The Trésor observed (in 1988): "Conjug. Ind. prés.: je peux ou je puis (quand je suit le verbe toujours puis-je: puis-je vous aider?), tu peux, il peut, nous pouvons, vous pouvez, ils peuvent; [...] La forme puis remplace peux, à la 1[sup]re[/sup] pers. du sing., toujours en forme interr., souvent dans la lang. soutenue à la forme affirm., nég. Vx: il n'en puit plus (Claudel, par souci d'archaïsme, v. Grev. Orth. 1962, § 1596)."
More recently, the Academie stated (in 2011): "À la première personne du présent de l’indicatif, quand le pronom je suit le verbe, on emploiera toujours puis au lieu de peux. Puis-je entrer ? Dans la langue soutenue, puis est souvent préféré à peux."
In a society where the language is also a symbolical tool of power, to say je puis instead of je peux is a conscientious or uncontentious audible sign of education (hence, as always, of class), albeit it can be used totally innocently, or for pure linguistic or poetic reasons.
Still, nota bene that you've heard that conjugation pronounced by the chatelain of Brissac.
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It appears to me that French writing registers might be divided into a common, a literary and a poetic registers...
The common one is the closest to the spoken registers.
As for books with up to date slang, I might suggest to seek into lyrics books? Especially from rap music, whose lyrics are generally well worked and which rely on an extensive use of slang and verlan. I've seen there is an analysis of Booba's lyrics, Booba or Poésie, musique et philosophie, by Alexandre Chirat, L'Harmattan, 2015.
BOOBA - Poésie, musique et philosophie, alexandre Chirat - livre, ebook, epub - idée lecture
Commandez le livre BOOBA - Poésie, musique et philosophie, alexandre Chirat - Ouvrage disponible en version papier et/ou numérique (ebook)
www.editions-harmattan.fr
For more common books, what I had happened to read from Virginie Despentes (which is quasi nothing) leads me to think that she is the kind of authoress whose style attempts to mimic the spoken language, hence which probably includes slang. Perhaps might it be a track...
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Speaking of elevated registers (and archaic spelling), check this out:
Berger, adjousta Astrée, l'histoire en seroit trop longue et trop ennuyeuse. Contentez vous, que si vous ne le sçavez, vous estes le seul en ceste ignorance, et qu'en toute ceste riviere de Lignon, il n'y a berger qui ne vous die que Celadon aymoit en mille lieux. Et sans aller plus loing, hier j'ouys de mes oreilles mesmes les discours d'amour qu'il tenoit à son Aminthe, car ainsi la nommoit-il, ausquels je me fusse arrestée plus long temps, n'eust este que sa honte me desplaisoit, et que pour dire le vray, j'avois d'autres affaires ailleurs, qui me pressoient davantage.
I like:
—the Latinate sentence structure.
—the archaic present subjunctive of dire. I wonder if in 1610 dit and die would have still been pronounced differently?
—the use of ouïr.
—Her feeble attempt to save face at the end with "I had more important things to do ..."
Question:
When she says, ausquels je me fusse arrestée long temps, n'eust este que sa honte me désplaisoit, would the modern equivalent be auxquels me serais longtemps arrêtée, s'il n'avait pas été que sa honte me déplaisait ?
Berger, adjousta Astrée, l'histoire en seroit trop longue et trop ennuyeuse. Contentez vous, que si vous ne le sçavez, vous estes le seul en ceste ignorance, et qu'en toute ceste riviere de Lignon, il n'y a berger qui ne vous die que Celadon aymoit en mille lieux. Et sans aller plus loing, hier j'ouys de mes oreilles mesmes les discours d'amour qu'il tenoit à son Aminthe, car ainsi la nommoit-il, ausquels je me fusse arrestée plus long temps, n'eust este que sa honte me desplaisoit, et que pour dire le vray, j'avois d'autres affaires ailleurs, qui me pressoient davantage.
I like:
—the Latinate sentence structure.
—the archaic present subjunctive of dire. I wonder if in 1610 dit and die would have still been pronounced differently?
—the use of ouïr.
—Her feeble attempt to save face at the end with "I had more important things to do ..."
Question:
When she says, ausquels je me fusse arrestée long temps, n'eust este que sa honte me désplaisoit, would the modern equivalent be auxquels me serais longtemps arrêtée, s'il n'avait pas été que sa honte me déplaisait ?
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I recognise L'Astrée d'Honoré d'Urfé, and your "elevated register" about a pastoral novel reminds me Virgil's fourth eclogue (I number it by memory, so I might be wrong)...
I presume that Contemporary French might render the first part, either with:
[L]es discours [...] auxquels je me fusse arrêtée plus longtemps... (to keep the subjunctive, here called conditionnel passé 2e forme in School Grammars) or [L]es discours [...] auxquels je me serais arrêtée plus longtemps... (to use the conditionnel passé 1re forme instead).
And then ..., s'il ne s'était trouvé que sa honte me déplaisait....
"S'il n'avait pas été que sa honte me déplaisait" isn't incorrect, so it stays another contemporary equivalent, but it haves, I feel, a syntax quite unusual with être for contemporary French. I feel that se trouver works better here, but other verbs and rewritings are undoubtedly possible.
I presume that Contemporary French might render the first part, either with:
[L]es discours [...] auxquels je me fusse arrêtée plus longtemps... (to keep the subjunctive, here called conditionnel passé 2e forme in School Grammars) or [L]es discours [...] auxquels je me serais arrêtée plus longtemps... (to use the conditionnel passé 1re forme instead).
And then ..., s'il ne s'était trouvé que sa honte me déplaisait....
"S'il n'avait pas été que sa honte me déplaisait" isn't incorrect, so it stays another contemporary equivalent, but it haves, I feel, a syntax quite unusual with être for contemporary French. I feel that se trouver works better here, but other verbs and rewritings are undoubtedly possible.
I am not sure, but even if the té of dit wouldn't had been voiced (something that I don't know), the e of die would had anyway, before que, so I would tend to believe that, yes, they would (but have also to admit that I don't know).
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I don't know that book either, but I've always liked Booba's style, or at least his former style, as it has evolved considerably over the years. Of course it's a very peculiar kind of poetry; for one thing, Booba is the king of gratuitous vulgarity.
I'm not entirely sure either, but I think both the "t" and the "e" would have been pronounced.
Yeah, I don't think I would find that turn of phrase to be completely out of place in contemporary literature but that use of être would still feel unusual.
The everyday French equivalent would probably be si sa honte ne m'avait pas déplu.
Thanks! I was under no illusion that my sentence is natural, but I hoped I understood the tenses/moods.
I did some digging and it looks like final consonants were already silent. Final e was in transition; conservative speakers pronounced it in front of consonants and others only between consonants. This is apparently the origin of Malherbe’s rule that e after a vowel must not precede a consonant?
I did some digging and it looks like final consonants were already silent. Final e was in transition; conservative speakers pronounced it in front of consonants and others only between consonants. This is apparently the origin of Malherbe’s rule that e after a vowel must not precede a consonant?
I just heard someone say on TV "des danseurs qui sont différents que les autres". That's like the American English construction "different than". It sounds a bit off to me in French but I wonder if it's a new trend that I wasn't aware of, or just a slip.
Would you expect "differents de ..."? Or a completely different wording?
Yes, "différents des autres" is the normal way for me (and probably for most Francophones).
I have to admit this kind of thing bugs me in English too so I sympathize. I'm noticing a creeping use of "speak to" instead of "speak about" which irritates me not because "speak to" is wrong, but because it means something else and people are conflating the two. Don't me started on "begging the question."
I wasn't aware of that.
I have a notion that's it's what I call adminspeak: people in leadership positions trying to sound more erudite by (mis)using idioms they have heard or misheard. A famous one is "irregardless."
I've heard it before but IDK if I would say it's a trend. It might be an analogy with pareil que for instance.
I would guess so too.
That's a good name!
The succession of these two sentences makes it look like they're related ("it might not be a trend, but maybe an analogy etc.") but they're not. I was just mentioning the fact that this use could be explained by an analogy with other constructions.
By the way, you said you heard it on TV: uttered by like an anchorman, or a random guy on the street? I have no good idea how common it is, but it sounds like popular French to me.
Neither of those things exactly; it was this person: The Dancer : découvrez l’incroyable parcours de notre pétillante coach Laurien Decibel - rtbf.be