Decem cives

john abshire

Well-Known Member

  • Patronus

Decem cives laudaverunt quos miseratis.
me> Ten citizens praised whom you (pl) had sent.
book> They praised the ten citizens whom you (pl) had sent.

Is my translation wrong? Could it be either?
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
I mean, I guess technically it could be yours, but I wouldn’t be inclined to read it that way, since quos agrees with cives. It’s true that decem cives is ambiguous in terms of case. Wait and see what others say.
 

MIB

Civis

  • Civis

Location:
Phoenix, AZ, USA
For that matter, I believe it could also be:

The ten praised the citizens whom...

But couldn't

The citizens praised the ten whom...

also work? Though I think it very much less likely due to the word order. The author using it would seem to be trying actively to not communicate his thought.

It seems to me that the Latin formation that best fits the English (if no context is given) would be putting the relative pronoun directly after its antecedent and the direct object after the verb:
Laudaverunt decem cives quos miseratis
but that still has some problems with clarity.
 
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

Location:
litore aureo
I would have thought that Ten citizens praised whom you (pl) had sent
would have had something like an illos in it
Decem cives laudaverunt illos quos miseratis.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
I mean, I guess technically it could be yours, but I wouldn’t be inclined to read it that way, since quos agrees with cives. It’s true that decem cives is ambiguous in terms of case. Wait and see what others say.
Both interpretations are possible but I agree the book's is probably more likely by default. In a natural situation there would be no problem because the context would make things clear.

I'm not sure what you mean about agreement; quos does agree in gender and number with cives but it would also agree with some "those".
For that matter, I believe it could also be:

The ten praised the citizens whom...

But couldn't

The citizens praised the ten whom...

also work?
In theory, yes, though those are the least likely of the interpretations suggested on this thread.
I would have thought that Ten citizens praised whom you (pl) had sent
would have had something like an illos in it
Decem cives laudaverunt illos quos miseratis.
Not necessarily.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
I'm not sure what you mean about agreement; quos does agree in gender and number with cives but it would also agree with some "those".
I mean that because they agree, the other reading wouldn’t occur to me (personally) unless someone pointed it out, or maybe if the sentence were in a context that made that reading more likely.
 

john abshire

Well-Known Member

  • Patronus

Both interpretations are possible but I agree the book's is probably more likely by default. In a natural situation there would be no problem because the context would make things clear.

I'm not sure what you mean about agreement; quos does agree in gender and number with cives but it would also agree with some "those".

In theory, yes, though those are the least likely of the interpretations suggested on this thread.

Not necessarily.
When you say that the book’s is more likely by default; do you mean that the accusative is the “default” case when there is a question? I was assuming that the nominative was the default because they occurred first in the sentence?
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
When you say that the book’s is more likely by default; do you mean that the accusative is the “default” case when there is a question? I was assuming that the nominative was the default because they occurred first in the sentence?
I don't want to speak for Pacifica, but in my case, what I meant is that the reading with Decem civēs as accusative seems more likely and natural. Your reading is grammatically possible but wouldn't be my first instinct.
 

john abshire

Well-Known Member

  • Patronus

I don't want to speak for Pacifica, but in my case, what I meant is that the reading with Decem civēs as accusative seems more likely and natural. Your reading is grammatically possible but wouldn't be my first instinct.
Assume that there were no Decem, but that the sentence started with cives. Now, does cives “seem more likely and natural” to be accusative rather than nominative because it occurs before the verb, or because it occurs first in the sentence, or both? How would the sentence be written if cives were nominative?
For reference:
Cives laudaverunt quos miseratis.
 

Avunculus H

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Germania
How would the sentence be written if cives were nominative?
It could be written exactly the same. As was said before, the sentence is ambiguous; only context can clarify. Now, it's possible to disambiguate the sentence by adding words, like cinefactus proposed, or by chosing a different construction, but that wasn't done here.
 

MIB

Civis

  • Civis

Location:
Phoenix, AZ, USA
In theory, yes, though those are the least likely of the interpretations suggested on this thread.
How would these be rendered? Would it be the word order?

The ten praised the citizens whom you (pl) had sent.
The citizens praised the ten whom you (pl) had sent.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
I think that in any case there would likely be a demonstrative with decem (like illi decem/illos decem). Then perhaps, as you say, things could be made clearer by the word order (by separating the words decem and cives) if the context weren't enough (but in a normal situation it usually would be).
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
Come to think of it, a simpler and more effective solution would be to turn the thing passive (e.g. illi decem a civibus laudati sunt).
 
Top