Cicero, idiomatic "ita vivam"

[Michael Zwingli]

Hey. Working through a couple of Cicero's letters to Atticus, came upon the phrase "ita vivam": Quaeris quid hic agam. ita vivam ut maximos sumptus facio.
Now, this obviously means, "You ask what I might be up to. As I may live, I make the greatest expenses" (that is, "I've been spending profusely").

Now, this "ita vivam" in my view literally means "so I may live", if the subjunctive here is construed to be potential subjunctive (as opposed to optative "so may I live"), but this idiom was used most often to mean "as I live", "on/upon my life", and the like. In other words, it's an oath attesting what follows. How do you suppose "so I may live" translates to this from a semantic perspective?

 

[Pacifica]

Vivam there is an optative subjunctive. "So may I live, as (such as such is the case)"—in other words, "upon my life, this is true"; "may I die if I lie".

 

[Michael Zwingli]

Vivam there is an optative subjunctive. "So may I live, as (such as such is the case)"—in other words, "upon my life, this is true"; "may I die if I lie".

(Sigh...) These kinds of idioms are always semantically troublesome for me. I can see what you mean, but it's still a bit of a stilted phrase like that in English. Perhaps it makes more sense to me if we translate ita as "thus", in the sense of "in this way", or even better, "as a result" (English conjunctive "thus", as in the sentence I have all the tools I need; thus, I will be able to fix the car without having to call a mechanic.), giving us "Thus (as a result) may I live...". 'Tis hard to know what senses of a word translate in such cases.

 

[Pacifica]

it's still a bit of a stilted phrase like that in English

Of course. You wouldn't usually put it that way in present-day English (though similar constructions did happen in English once upon a time).* But it's normal in Latin.

Perhaps it makes more sense to me if we translate ita as "thus", in the sense of "in this way", or even better, "as a result" (English conjunctive "thus", as in the sentence I have all the tools I need; thus, I will be able to fix the car without having to call a mechanic.)

If I follow your reasoning correctly, it doesn't sound right.


*There's a relic of it in the presidential oath that ends in "so help me God", which means "may God help me (only) to the extent that I do all I've sworn to do."

 

[Michael Zwingli]

*There's a relic of it in the presidential oath that ends in "so help me God", which means "may God help me (only) to the extent that I do all I've sworn

True! We attribute implied meaning to such phrases without ever considering the lexical semantics, and in this way, they become for us a kind of "lexical unit"...almost like a single word. I suppose it might have been the same for Cicero, despite his greatness!

 

[Pacifica]

Here's the full construction (including the "as") from Shakespeare, 2 Henry VI, Act III, Scene I:

"So help me God, as I have watch'd the night,
Ay, night by night, in studying good for England!"

It could have developed independently in English, or it could have been borrowed from Latin.

 

[Michael Zwingli]

"So help me God, as I have watch'd the night,
Ay, night by night, in studying good for England!"

Thank you...wonderful, as Shakespeare always is. As I say, I have always simply construed "so help me god" as just verifying what has been said by oath, and have never even once considered the lexical semantics of it. The politicians yet lie, and that quite easily, despite using it; it is a meaningless phrase.