Apparel for writers

Stella Spectans

New Member

Firstly, I'm happy to pay for translation if that's what you recommend.

These are the three similar, but slightly different, lines I would appreciate your help with translating:

"Apparel for writers."
"Authentic apparel for writers."
"Genuine apparel for writers."

Info for context: I'm working on a t-shirt logo design themed to the profession of writing, especially for authors/writers to wear (e.g. a t-shirt with a picture of a typewriter or something else writer-related).
Essentially, I’m trying to achieve similar to how a clothing company or a brand would have their logo/brand name front & centre on a t-shirt, and then underneath there would be a smaller, short phrase, something like:

Authentic clothing co.
or
Genuine sporting apparel.

The idea is to make it sound a bit trendy, but also to give the wearer (writer/author) a sense of pride, just as one would get from wearing the authentic/genuine merch of their favourite sports team.

Ideally, the word "writers" would cover all writers, both male and female. I suppose I could print the feminine wording on the female-style t-shirts, and the masculine wording on the male-style t-shirts, but if there is a phrase/wording that covers writers as a whole - both male and female writers - that would make things less complicated.

Please let me know if you require any further information. Thank you.
 

AoM

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For the first section, see what others think of:

vestis scriptorum
vera vestis scriptorum
sincera vestis scriptorum
authentica vestis scriptorum
 

Petrus Cotoneus

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I'm not sure I've ever encountered the adjective sincera applied to a thing rather than a person. Also, authentica seems to be a rare (and late) word. I would probably go with vera or perhaps germana - the latter a favorite usage of Cicero, as in this passage from Off. 3.17.69: Sed nos veri iuris germanaeque iustitiae solidam et expressam effigiem nullam tenemus ("But of true law and genuine justice we have no solid and clear image").

Addendum: You could also say vera/germana/etc. vestimenta or verus/germanus/etc. vestitus if you prefer the sound of either of those to vestis. All three are nearly synonymous, though vestimentum (pl. vestimenta) refers to a single item of clothing (like English "garment") while vestis and vestitus are more generically "clothes." There is also amictus, which is what today we might call "outerwear."
 
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Stella Spectans

New Member

I'm not sure I've ever encountered the adjective sincera applied to a thing rather than a person. Also, authentica seems to be a rare (and late) word. I would probably go with vera or perhaps germana - the latter a favorite usage of Cicero, as in this passage from Off. 3.17.69: Sed nos veri iuris germanaeque iustitiae solidam et expressam effigiem nullam tenemus ("But of true law and genuine justice we have no solid and clear image").

Addendum: You could also say vera/germana/etc. vestimenta or verus/germanus/etc. vestitus if you prefer the sound of either of those to vestis. All three are nearly synonymous, though vestimentum (pl. vestimenta) refers to a single item of clothing (like English "garment") while vestis and vestitus are more generically "clothes." There is also amictus, which is what today we might call "outerwear."
Thank you. I intend "clothes/clothing" to be plural, so I'd use vestimenta or vestitus, is that correct? Is vestes (with an e, not an i) also plural for clothes/clothing?
 

Stella Spectans

New Member

For the first section, see what others think of:

vestis scriptorum
vera vestis scriptorum
sincera vestis scriptorum
authentica vestis scriptorum
Thank you. Scriptorum covers both male and female writers, is that correct? I'm wondering, would scriptoribus also be applicable?
 

Petrus Cotoneus

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Thank you. I intend "clothes/clothing" to be plural, so I'd use vestimenta or vestitus, is that correct? Is vestes (with an e, not an i) also plural for clothes/clothing?
You would say vestis (sg.) or vestitus (sg.) or vestimenta (pl.). The first two do not need to be pluralized, because they are already collective nouns (like English "clothing").
Scriptorum covers both male and female writers, is that correct?
The word scriptor is grammatically masculine but can be used of humans of any gender. Although it is true that some agent nouns have specifically masculine and feminine forms (e.g., cantor "male singer" vs cantrix "female singer"), many do not. (The form scriptrix does not occur in any surviving classical text, though I suppose it could be argued that female writers were not common in the ancient world.) In any case, I see no reason not to treat scriptor and its various declined forms (e.g., scriptorum) like we nowadays treat the English (and Latin!) word "actor" - that is, as gender-neutral - in preference to distinguishing between male "actors" and female "actresses" (which sounds a bit passe, not to say sexist).
I'm wondering, would scriptoribus also be applicable?
To my ears, the dative would sound odd here - more like ((authentic for writers) clothes) than (authentic (clothes for writers)). Others may disagree, but I would go with the genitive as @AoM suggested.
 
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Stella Spectans

New Member

You would say vestis (sg.) or vestitus (sg.) or vestimenta (pl.). The first two do not need to be pluralized, because they are already collective nouns (like English "clothing").

Ok. Just to clarify, if I want the word apparel/clothes/clothing to mean the same as this example: e.g. A sportswear company makes the statement, 'Our clothing is the best!' Meaning their whole range of clothing (not just a singular piece). Are you saying I could use vestis, vestitus or vestimenta? One is not more correct than the others in this case? Thank you.
 

Petrus Cotoneus

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Ok. Just to clarify, if I want the word apparel/clothes/clothing to mean the same as this example: e.g. A sportswear company makes the statement, 'Our clothing is the best!' Meaning their whole range of clothing (not just a singular piece). Are you saying I could use vestis, vestitus or vestimenta? One is not more correct than the others in this case? Thank you.
Yes. They are interchangeable. (There are very subtle differences in usage across authors, genres, and literary periods, but they are essentially synonymous.) Of course, any verb would need to agree in number with whichever noun you choose - just like in English we say "clothing/apparel is" but "clothes/garments are."
 

Stella Spectans

New Member

Addendum: You could also say vera/germana/etc. vestimenta or verus/germanus/etc. vestitus if you prefer the sound of either of those to vestis. All three are nearly synonymous, though vestimentum (pl. vestimenta) refers to a single item of clothing (like English "garment") while vestis and vestitus are more generically "clothes." There is also amictus, which is what today we might call "outerwear."
Thanks. So, for: "genuine/authentic apparel for writers", we have landed on:

vera/germana vestis/vestitus/vestimenta scriptorum (a few options for the first two words, which I'll think about and decide on.)

If it was to be tweaked slightly, to: "genuine/authentic apparel for authors", which form of auctors would work here?

vera/germana vestis/vestitus/vestimenta XXX?

Would it be: vera/germana vestis/vestitus/vestimenta auctorum?
 

Iacobinus

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If, by <author>, you mean "author of literary works", the latin name is really scriptor, and certainly not auctor ("guarantor, authority"). Scriptorum is, hence to be kept.

Authentic can be translated as verus or as certus (vera, certa if it haves to agree with vestis or vestimenta, but certus or verus if it haves to agree with vestitus).
 

Iacobinus

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in preference to distinguishing between male "actors" and female "actresses" (which sounds a bit passe, not to say sexist).
Quite wrongly. Actress -as passé as it might sound in Europe and North America- is absolutely not sexist and cannot be sexist.

What is true is that English feminists (and beyond them English speakers) tend to perceive -through a conflation- that making clear in a speech the feminine gender of a female individual is sexist (hence using <actress> for a female actor is perceived as sexist), while, for example, French feminists (and beyond them French speakers) tend to perceive -through a similar conflation, set in a distinct context- that hiding the feminine gender of a female individual is sexist (hence using <acteur> for a female actor is perceived as sexist).

Facts are that neither are sexist by themselves and they simply cannot be. One can have a perfectly feminist thought while using <actress> or <acteur> to name any female actor, and another might have a perfectly sexist thought while using <actor> or <actrice> to name any female actor. It is obviously disconnected to sexism. There are absolutely no logical link in that conflation.

It is hence quite erroneous to perceive <actress>'s sound as sexist.
 
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Petrus Cotoneus

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Quite wrongly.
This is something about which it is perfectly possible for reasonable people to disagree. Without entering into a debate over it (since it really is of the most marginal relevance to OP's question), I will just point out that it is silly to frame this as a question of "facts." It certainly isn't. It is a question of what some people feel to be implicit in the use of a gendered term when a gender-neutral one would do - irrespective of the intentions of the speaker. This article from the Los Angeles Times (already more than a decade old) sums up the controversy in a quite balanced way.
 

Iacobinus

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I will just point out that it is silly to frame this as a question of "facts." It certainly isn't.
Yet, it is a question of facts, I'd claim: The idea that a woman might be an actor is not sexist per see. Sexism is not about distinguishing the sexes, but about attributing distinct moral values. The meaning of "actress" is "female actor". To say that <actress> is sexist, because it would distinguish female actors from male actors - is as silly as saying that <dog> is specist in that it distinguishes canine beings from wolves...

There is nothing -and there cannot be anything- sexist in a word such as <actress>. Sexism is an ideology, and the undeniable and very obvious fact is that a word cannot have an ideology: a word is not an intelligent being able of conceptualizing ideological things. A word itself isn't an ideology neither. An ideology needs the structured concord of sentences to appears as an ideology. A word is just a semantic brick that can be used to think, write or speak any ideology and its opposite.

Words have a true (ἔτυμον) meaning. In the case of <actress>, the true meaning is approximatively "feminine being who does something".

Words can have an official meaning. English words lack official meanings (because English doesn't have an official instance of normalization of its lexicon). French does, through the Dictionnaire de l'Académie française which is published in the Journal officiel de la République française and whose official meanings for <acteur> are 1. Comédien ou comédienne de profession qui joue des rôles de façon habituelle ou fréquente, à la scène ou à l’écran. Un acteur de premier plan, de second rang. Une actrice tragique, dramatique, comique. Dans ce film, le réalisateur a associé aux acteurs des interprètes recrutés parmi les habitants du village. Spécialement. Acteur de complément, figurant. Fig. Elle a su feindre l’indignation en grande actrice.
2. Personne qui, volontairement ou non, participe à la conduite ou à l’exécution d’une affaire. Il aura été un des principaux acteurs de la négociation. De spectateur, il devint acteur malgré lui.


And then, there are the connotations, but, contrary to the true meaning and to the official meaning, which are absolute (in that there is only one true meaning, and some normalized official meanings), there are as many connotations as there are speakers, readers, writers, or listeners of the word. And everyone of them haves his own use, his own perception.

The perception that "actress" is sexist is a conflation, as shown by how the article from the Los Angeles Times that you've linked sums it up. The article doesn't really question the word itself -it doesn't pretend that its true meaning would be sexist-, but questions how some people would had used it, how some people would had understood it: the whole article is about the word's connotations. It even states: "The phrase “female actor” may suggest a seriousness and muscularity that “actress” does not..." Considering that <female actor> is the exact paraphrase of <actress>, it becomes quite telling that it isn't about the word <actress> itself. It is also quite difficult to argue that <the actress is here and plays> would be sexist, while <the actor is here, she plays> wouldn't... as <... actor..., she...> = <actress>. What is perceived as sexist is, hence, quite clearly meta to the word itself.

That, when speaking about a female actor, what tends to be perceived as sexist by English feminists, the word <actress>, actually tends to be perceived as feminist by French feminists through the word <actrice>; and what tends to be perceived as feminist, the word <actor>, actually tends to be perceived as sexist by French feminists through the word <acteur> is also enlightening.

Why? Because English feminists fight to reduce the ability to distinguish sexes through the language, which is what French feminists denounce as an invisibilisation of women's fact. On the reverse, French feminists fight to enhance the ability to distinguish sexes through the language, which is what English feminist denounce as an unnecessary distinction of women from male men.

All of this results from a conflation between a word and how a word tend to be used: who can be feminist or sexist are speakers' thoughts, not the words they use in their speech. The difference of context is enough to totally reverse the situation between <actress> and <actrice>. The difference of context being mostly, I perceive, that, while both in France and in England, phallocrates actively used to grant derogatory connotations to feminine nouns of functions and of professions, French phallocrates ultimately failed -so French feminists progressively conquered back the dignity of female nouns of functions and of professions- while English phallocrates ultimately succeeded -so English feminists progressively abandoned the derogatorily connoted nouns, and took for themselves the preserved masculine nouns (something that older French feminists also did, in the early 20th century..., but successive waves of younger feminism eventually chose to take the path of a more visible affirmation of their gender).

So yes, it is quite wrong to perceive <actress>'s sound (or <acteur>'s sound) as sexist: it isn't. Only its use might be.

Someone who would defend that "actresses are as worthy as male actors, should not be treated differently and, hence, shall be paid as much as their male counterpart and shall be trusted when they denounce sexual assaults" would be infinitely more feminist than someone who would say that the sole value he "found[s ]to actors he employs is to take pictures under their skirts to see their vagina and to share it on the Internet".
And another fact is that it is possible to build the first sentence with <actress> and to build the second with <actor>.

So, to summary my point:
That many speakers who use <actress> sound sexist? undoubtedly.
That most speakers who use <actress> sound sexist? certainly.
That they sound sexist because they are sexist? certainly, but they are so because of how they combine words to formulate (to themselves or to others) their thought, not because of the words they use...
That the word <actress> sounds in itself sexist? perhaps, but wrongly, because of a conflation of that word with many or most of those who use it...
 
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Stella Spectans

New Member

Authentic can be translated as verus or as certus (vera, certa if it haves to agree with vestis or vestimenta, but certus or verus if it haves to agree with vestitus).
Thanks for that. So my options are:

vera vestis/vestimenta scriptorum
certa vestis/vestimenta scriptorum
verus vestitus scriptorum
certus vestitus scriptorum
germana vestimenta scriptorum
germanus vestitus scriptorum

I'm also still considering using authentica. I appreciate Petrus Cotoneus letting me know:

authentica seems to be a rare (and late) word. I would probably go with vera or perhaps germana
... however, for the purposes of how I will use this phrase, I kind of like that someone who doesn't really know much Latin could quite easily intuit what authentica means in English.

Would "authentica" pair with "vestis" and "vestimenta"? Would it change to "authenticus" to pair with vestitus? Like this:

authentica vestis scriptorum
authentica vestimenta scriptorum
authenticus vestitus scriptorum
 

Iacobinus

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authentica vestis scriptorum
authentica vestimenta scriptorum
authenticus vestitus scriptorum
Yep, that is correct.

Vestis, is is a feminine singular nominative noun, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authentica.

Vestīmentum, ī is a neutral singular nominative noun whose plural form is vestimenta, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authentica. The form looks similar than the previous one, but is in fact grammatically different.

Vestītŭs, ūs, is a common and masculine singular nominative noun, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authenticus.
 
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Stella Spectans

New Member

Yep, that is correct.

Vestis, is is a feminine singular nominative noun, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authentica.

Vestīmentum, ī is a neutral singular nominative noun whose plural form is vestimenta, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authentica. The form looks similar than the previous one, but is in fact grammatically different.

Vestītŭs, ūs, is a common and masculine singular nominative noun, so the adjective authentĭcus, a, um agrees with it as authenticus.
Thank you! And if I wanted the statement to be simply, "Apparel for authors", is it as easy as dropping off the first word to leave:

vestis scriptorum
vestimenta scriptorum
vestitus scriptorum


?
 
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