’Pronouncing’ long vs short vowels in your head while you read

[interprete]

Hello,

To be completely honest, the main point of this post is to vent my frustration in the form of a poll, to make it look a bit more constructive, and to see if I’m the only one having this issue or not.
When I read a text without macrons, I do just fine, but when macrons are there, I find them so distracting that I can’t fully focus on the actual meaning of what I read. It’s like half of my attention is drawn to the macrons, which ’forces’ me to distinguish long and short vowels as I read with my inner voice, and it only leaves me the other half of my brain to actually interpret and understand the content of the sentences.
Does this happen to you too? The poll allows multiple answers, because I’m interested in both whether you make the long/short difference even when you read ’in your head’, and whether this causes you cognitive trouble.

On a different but related note, I have read somewhere that today’s generations of readers are very slow because they were taught to read out in their minds, whereas a skillful reader just deciphers the words and understands the message without ’vocalizing’ the text in their head, which allows much higher reading speeds. Which makes me wonder if this is also possible in a language where vowel length matters so much.

Thanks!

 

[kizolk]

Similar problem here, but in both cases: macrons tend to direct my attention to the words' written and/or phonological shape, rather than to their semantic content or that of the sentence; when there's no macrons, trying to remember/guess which vowels are long, in itself can divert my attention from the content, to some extent.

As for subvocalization, I'm not even sure when/if I do it sometimes. When I read carefully and slowly, I do subvocalize, particularly when I want to enjoy the language's phonology, but when I'm just reading something for practical purposes and in a language I'm familiar enough with, I know that I read much faster than I could ever talk so it's probably a sign I'm not subvocalizing (since subvocalizing is not just "vocalizing" in one's mind: the articulatory muscles are involved, as if we were actually speaking), but it still feels like I'm hearing my inner voice at least intermittently, so I don't really know.

 

[Clemens]

It doesn't really bother me. There seems to be a lot of distress surrounding vowel length, but even English has it; it's just sort of hidden: the vowel of bead is longer than the vowel of beat, for example. Japanese has vowel length, and I never found it super confusing, because there are live Japanese people to emulate. When you hear someone speaking Japanese, the long vowels really stand out. (Side note: long vowels are especially abundant in Sino-Japanese words.)

Both Japanese and Arabic tend to transcribe English words with long vowels, and I certainly get the impression in both languages that it's not that their long vowels are longer than in English, but that their short vowels are much shorter. I wonder if this would also be the case with Latin.

Also, I voted twice, because I definitely rely on macrons to guide me, but with words or morphemes that I know well (such as endings), I don't always need macrons.

 

[kizolk]

Agreed but I think it's worth pointing out that while English has long and short vowels, length isn't phonemic in most varieties, so it would still be a new concept to a lot of anglophones I would imagine.

Also, I did think about Japanese when writing this message as well ^^ They never confused me either, and I didn't have trouble either learning which vowels were long, or pronouncing them, it just seemed a natural part of the language. Maybe what I find difficult in Latin long vowels is that obviously I'm familiar with a lot of the words, being a native Romance speaker, but not to their having length distinctions...

 

[interprete]

Agreed but I think it's worth pointing out that while English has long and short vowels, length isn't phonemic in most varieties, so it would still be a new concept to a lot of anglophones I would imagine.

Also, I did think about Japanese when writing this message as well ^^ They never confused me either, and I didn't have trouble either learning which vowels were long, or pronouncing them, it just seemed a natural part of the language. Maybe what I find difficult in Latin long vowels is that obviously I'm familiar with a lot of the words, being a native Romance speaker, but not to their having length distinctions...

Does Japanese have entires sentences made up of almost only long vowels though? As in "sīc vōs nōn vōbīs nīdificātis, avēs, where you apparently have a sequence of 6 long vowels in a row.
What is the maximum number of successive long vowels that Japanese (or any other modern language) can have?

As for subvocalization

So THAT’s what it’s called
Are you saying that when we subvocalize, we activate articulatory muscles without realizing it?

 

[kizolk]

Does Japanese have entires sentences made up of almost only long vowels though? As in "sīc vōs nōn vōbīs nīdificātis, avēs, where you apparently have a sequence of 6 long vowels in a row.
What is the maximum number of successive long vowels that Japanese (or any other modern language) can have?

I don't think there's a theoretical limit to that number, since you can always make up a contrived example to maximize that feature. That said, as Clemens pointed out, Sino-Japanese words often contain long vowels; those words show up a lot in formal/technical contexts (a bit like how you're more likely to find words of Latin origin in formal English than in everyday speech), and they can be chained, so you can end up with veeeery long words/expressions that way. For instance, in a Wikipedia article that I've checked, I found : 総務省情報流通行政局 (sōmu)shōjōhōryūtsūgyōsē(kyoku), so 7 successive long vowels, in a single word (well, depending on your definition of word!) meaning "Information and Communications Bureau of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications". No doubt that longer ones are in use, and you can theoretically make up an arbitrarily long one using only long vowels.

Are you saying that when we subvocalize, we activate articulatory muscles without realizing it?

Yup! Many studies have shown just that, for instance by measuring electrical activity in the larynx. It's thought to help comprehension and memorization among other things, but it may come to the detriment of reading speed, although the science isn't completely clear on all these issues yet, from what I've read.

 

[interprete]

総務省情報流通行政局 (sōmu)shōjōhōryūtsūgyōsē(kyoku)

So I’ve found it pronounced here, at the beginning of the video: 

Unfortunately she pauses (or trips?) in the middle of it so you don’t really experience the real effect of seven long vowels in a row, but I find it really cool that such instances do exist in modern languages, which makes sīc vōs nōn vōbīs nīdificātis, avēs type of sentences much less weird.

Yup! Many studies have shown just that, for instance by measuring electrical activity in the larynx. It's thought to help comprehension and memorization among other things, but it may come to the detriment of reading speed, although the science isn't completely clear on all these issues yet, from what I've read.

That’s really interesting! Thank you.

 

[Abbatiſſæ Scriptor]

I moſtly read Church Latin, so I rarely ſee any text with macrons, but I nonetheleſs try to be aware of vowel duration.

 

[Pacifica]

Similar situation here. I read mostly unmacronized (not necessarily Church) Latin, and I try to make things sound correctly in my head as far as I can; that is, when I'm aware of the vowel lengths.

 

[interprete]

I moſtly read Church Latin, so I rarely ſee any text with macrons, but I nonetheleſs try to be aware of vowel duration.

Speaking of subvocalizing, I can't help subvocalizing your posts with a liſp

 

[interprete]

Similar situation here. I read mostly unmacronized (not necessarily Church) Latin, and I try to make things sound correctly in my head as far as I can; that is, when I'm aware of the vowel lengths.

Do you find this distracting?
Also, is this something you've done from day 1 in Latin?
In France it seems no one learns vowel quantity in the regular school system until you start poetry I think. It seems more common in the English speaking world to introduce that notion right from the start ..

 

[Pacifica]

Do you find this distracting?

I'm not sure. Occasionally, perhaps? But usually not really.

Also, is this something you've done from day 1 in Latin?

No, not at all. I ignored vowel length for a long time.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

different but related note, I have read somewhere that today’s generations of readers are very slow because they were taught to read out in their minds, whereas a skillful reader just deciphers the words and understands the message without ’vocalizing’ the text in their head, which allows much higher reading speeds. Which makes me wonder if this is also possible in a language where vowel length matters so much.

My ideal is to read aloud, because that's how I understand the ancient Romans did (usually).

Recently I've started reading Ov. M., and although understanding very little, absolutely loving the rhythms!

I used to know a man who told me that after taking a speed-reading course, he had read War and Peace in two nights! -- or was it one night? And I thought: Why bother? How can you enjoy or appreciate, or morally or spiritually or in any way benefit from reading something like that so fast?

 

[interprete]

My ideal is to read aloud, because that's how I understand the ancient Romans did (usually).

You mean they had no concept of subvocalizing?

 

[Gregorius Textor]

I haven't thought about this before -- but who among the ancients, or even in the 19th century, would have had such a concept?

 

[interprete]

I haven't thought about this before -- but who among the ancients, or even in the 19th century, would have had such a concept?

Any literate individual? I feel I may be missing your point...

 

[kizolk]

I may be wrong but it seems to me Gregorius is talking about the articulatory aspect of subvocalization, whereas you interprete seem to be talking about silent reading, which is indeed how this word is often used.

As far as silent reading goes, it has often been said that the ancients didn't know/use that "technique", but apparently it's not that clear-cut : http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/02/reading-silently-and-reading-out-loud.html

 

[Gregorius Textor]

I may be wrong but it seems to me Gregorius is talking about the articulatory aspect of subvocalization, whereas you interprete seem to be talking about silent reading, which is indeed how this word is often used.

As far as silent reading goes, it has often been said that the ancients didn't know/use that "technique", but apparently it's not that clear-cut : http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/02/reading-silently-and-reading-out-loud.html

Yes, I was.

And now that I've read (most of) that very interesting blog article, I will continue to read Latin aloud as much as I can, at least until I become much more proficient than I am now, because I think that the combination of hearing and seeing will make me learn more effectively. And besides, I love the sound of the language!

 

[kizolk]

I will continue to read Latin aloud as much as I can, at least until I become much more proficient than I am now, because I think that the combination of hearing and seeing will make me learn more effectively. And besides, I love the sound of the language!

Same here! I do try to read aloud as much as I can when I'm reading in a language I'm learning, I think it's a good practice and it's just enjoyable in itself.

 

[Godmy]

It comes naturally for me, but it's only due to a lot of work done about 7 years ago: deliberately reading again my textbook (LLPSI) aloud and putting the stresses and vowel lengths correctly for each word. It turns out that reading aloud works for the brain similarly as listening to a recording/speaker while learning a foreign language, the auditory information stays there. It also helped that I decided to write Latin only with macrons, so when I didn't know, I had to quickly look up a dictionary before I wrote a word.