Simplex sigillum veri (accentuation).

root

Member

I was in a music forum asking for the exact wording, in latin, of "Simplicity is the seal of truth". They gave me "Simplex sigillum veri". I wonder how to accentuate. Skimming through my Latin books, I find the accentuation ought to be 'simplex si'gillum 'veri, given the 'i' in simplex is followed by two consonants ( not exactly but perhaps two of them are considered as only one) and the same is true for the second 'i' in sigillum. Is that correct?

By the way, could you tell me what the declensions of each of the three words are?
 

Adrian

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Simplex sigillum veri - I read it as he/she/it (that is) simple is the seal of he who is true... interesting
veri - genitive singular of verus (the true one, masculine).
Simplicity is the seal of truth - I would translate it as Veritatis sigillum simplicitas.
 

root

Member

Simplex sigillum veri - I read it as he/she/it (that is) simple is the sign of he who is true... interesting
veri - genitive singular of verus (the true one, masculine).
Simplicity is the seal of truth - I would translate it as Veritatis sigillum simplicitas.
Thanks for your kind reply. I think I have now a clue to why so many Latin locutions seem so concise. Taking your translation, perhaps the verb est is implicit in it, and one could read Veritatis sigillum simplicitas est. I know some phrases (sentences) where the verb is lacking, or so it seems to me but I cannot remember any just now. And I couldn't make any meaning of it.
 

Adrian

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Incorporating verb "esse" is OK (gives a safer composition; I ommited it for the sake of brevity),
Simplicitas est veritatis sigillum/ Veritatis sigillum simplicitas est (word order in latin is not as important as in english/ inflection is most important)

Vale!
 

root

Member

Incorporating verb "esse" is OK (gives a safer composition; I ommited it for the sake of brevity),
Simplicitas est veritatis sigillum/ Veritatis sigillum simplicitas est (word order in latin is not as important as in english/ inflection is most important)

Vale!
Thanks again for your illustrative post, Adrian. And greetings to you too.

Enrique.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
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veri - genitive singular of verus (the true one, masculine).
It can also be the neuter form used substantively: of "the true", of what is true. Same can go for simplex actually. We could translate simplex sigillum veri as "what is simple is the seat of what is true", even if I think that it's clearer with simplicitas. On the other hand, I think there is absolutely no problem with using the neuter veri.
 

root

Member

I think I understand, except for one thing. Verus belongs to the second declension. So, verus, -i. Now, if verus = the true one, then verus is a name and I learn in this thread it is masculine. But then, Pacis puella, how can it have a neuter form? Humm... perhaps there is verus (2nd decl), vera (1st decl) and verum (2nd decl). And you are telling me that veri is also the genitive of verum, not only the genitive of verus. I see now. Yet, I stumble on "... the neuter form used substantively". We have been talking about names. Or aren't verus/vera/verum names? Can they be treated otherwise than substantively?
 

Pacifica

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Verus, a, um isn't a name but an adjective which means "true". In nominative, verus is its masculine form, vera its feminine one, and verum its neuter one. Sometimes in latin (as well as in other languages including English in fact), adjectives can be used substantively, that is that they are used as if they were nouns. (Think of English "the good in this story is...", "the bad is...", "the true is..."). Here the adjective verum (neuter) is used to designate "the true", "what is true."
 

Adrian

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Verus, a, um isn't a name but an adjective which means "true". In nominative, verus is its masculine form, vera its feminine one, and verum its neuter one. Sometimes in latin (as well as in other languages including English in fact), adjectives can be used substantively, that is that they are used as if they were nouns. (Think of English "the good in this story is...", "the bad is...", "the true is..."). Here the adjective verum (neuter) is used to designate "the true", "what is true."
In addition "verum" is used also as an adverb (rare form, usu. vero) - in truth, tryly, and it also exists as a noun verum, n. 2 - reality, fact, truth (in lesser context).
Eventually Simplex sigillum veri means (that which is) simple is the seal of (that which is) true. Problem is (Following Ramshorn and Doderlein) that latin composition should avoid any ambiguity. Moreover, in case of lack of clear distinction or context; presumed subject in latin is usually considered masculine (Grammar of the Latin language, on the basis of the grammar of Dr. Alexander Adam). Therefore, I read Simplex sigillum veri as - he/she/it (that is) simple is the seal of he who is true. This is also the reason I proposed composition based on nouns.
 

Pacifica

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Yes, I agree that simplex is misleading; better to use simplicitas. But as for veri, I don't think it's that ambiguous; it's rather obvious that it means "the true" here. But of course veritatis is good as well.
and it also exists as a noun verum, n. 2 - reality, fact, truth (in lesser context).
I think it also exists as a noun because the substantivated adjective was used so often that it eventually came to be classified as a noun too. I think the same goes for all "adjective-nouns" of that kind in all languages.
 

root

Member

Verus, a, um isn't a name but an adjective which means "true". In nominative, verus is its masculine form, vera its feminine one, and verum its neuter one. Sometimes in latin (as well as in other languages including English in fact), adjectives can be used substantively, that is that they are used as if they were nouns. (Think of English "the good in this story is...", "the bad is...", "the true is..."). Here the adjective verum (neuter) is used to designate "the true", "what is true."
Thank you Pacis puella for shedding light in this matter. In the post before mine you quoted:
veri - genitive singular of verus (the true one, masculine).
But how, verus being an adjective, can "the true one" be a traslattion for verus. I'd say "the true" is a translation for verus, or "that which is true" if you like. Of course I'm taking verus as the neuter form and not the masculine.
 

Pacifica

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But how, verus being an adjective, can "the true one" be a traslattion for verus. I'd say "the true" is a translation for verus, or "that which is true" if you like. Of course I'm taking verus as the neuter form and not the masculine.
Adrian just first misinterpreted the word. It isn't the masculine verus here, but the neuter verum (the true, that which is true). (They both have the same genitive veri.)

If you want, here's an example (of my invention) where verus can mean "the true one" (masculine):

- Ecce nummi duo. Alter verus est, alter falsus. Potesne dicere quis sit verus?

- Here are two coins. One is true, the other is fake. Can you tell which is the true one?

Ecce = behold, here is/are
Nummus = coin (nom. plural nummi)
Duo = two
Alter...alter = one... the other
Verus = true
Est = is
Falsus = false, fake
Potesne...? = can you...?
Dicere = tell
Quis? = who, what, which?
Sit = is (subjunctive form of est used in indirect interrogations)
 

root

Member

Pacis puella:

The problem with Simplex sigillum veri I have it now solved at last. Only your previous example gives me some trouble yet. In my language (Spanish) the last sentence in your example would be Puedes decirme cuál es la verdadera? And I confess you I don't know which part of the sentence (grammatical function) "la verdadera" is in the Spanish sentence.

So, the source of my difficulty lies in a lack of understanding of grammar, English or Spanish. For which, I sincerely apologize. Thanks again and regards.

Enrique.
 

Acsacal

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I may come here a little bit late.
I think a way to simplify (simplify!) would be replacing is the seal of by the only verb seals. Hence, in Latin: simplicitas obsignat veritatem.

To root : although I don't know Spanish I guess that your sentence puedes decirme cuál es la verdadera? may be a pure equivalent of my French: peux-tu me dire quelle est la vérité? Of course it not obvious to decide whether the subject of est is quelle or la vérité? But it is easy to decide, considering the answer la vérité, c'est... Then you see immediately that la verité (la verdadera if my guess is correct) is the subject. (Remark, colloquially most francophones would not state the question as I wrote it, but say la vérité, c'est quoi? la vérité, c'est celle de qui? etc.)
 

Pacifica

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puedes decirme cuál es la verdadera? = can you tell me which is the true one? (not what is the truth (truth= verdad). he was referring to my example with the coins.)

But apart from that Acsacal is right. "La verdadera" is the subject of the subordinated sentence (that is "cuál es la verdadera", the main sentence being "puedes decirme"), and "cúal" is just its attributive (interrogative) adjective.
So, the source of my difficulty lies in a lack of understanding of grammar, English or Spanish. For which, I sincerely apologize. Thanks again and regards.
You don't have to apologize. I myself apologize for my lack of aptitude to explain grammar...

Y no te preocupes. Antes de aprender el latín, yo no conocía nada de todos esos terminos gramáticales tampoco... Si hubiera visto una conversación como esta hace dos años, no hubiera entendido mucho...
 

root

Member

A mi me esta sucediendo al reves. Ahora, antes de aprender latin, quiero conocer algo de la gramatica de mi propio idioma, aunque se que el latin ayuda. Pero ya que te las ingenias con la gramatica, dime: casa, arbol, mesa estan dentro de una misma categoria gratical. Lo mismo pasa con hermoso, alegre, divino: la categoria es aqui llamada adjetivo mientras que la primera se llama nombre o sustantivo. Pero existe la categoria de todas estas categorias: sustantivo, adjetivo, verbo, et cetera. Como se se llama? Yo la aprendi como funcion gramatical. Vale decir, el adjetivo seria una funcion gramatical, lo mismo que el sustantivo, verbo, etc. Pero como la terminologia ha cambiado, no se como la llamaran ahora.

Y no te preocupes. Antes de aprender el latín, yo no conocía nada de todos esos terminos gramáticales tampoco... Si hubiera visto una conversación como esta hace dos años, no hubiera entendido mucho...
Solamente dos anios?!

Acsacal: thanks for your kind reply.

semoi@darkstar:/almacen/sma_/info/clear/cl1/correo/latin$
 

Pacifica

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Pero como la terminologia ha cambiado, no se como la llamaran ahora. Y saber como la llaman en ingles me seria util tambien.
Ha cambiado? Si no me equivoco, todavía se dice "grammatical function" pero el inglés no es mi lengua maternal tampoco, es el francés, entonces conozco los terminos franceses mejor, como los cursos de lenguas que tomo son en francés.
Solamente dos anios?!
Empeze mis cursos de latín hace casi un año y media, y los de español hace menos de un año (entonces lo siento si cometo errores!).
A mi me esta sucediendo al reves. Ahora, antes de aprender latin, quiero conocer algo de la gramatica de mi propio idioma, aunque se que el latin ayuda.
Créeme, si empiezas aprender el latín, pronto vas a conocer la gramática española, inglés y de cualquier otro idioma que conozcas mucho mejor!
 

root

Member

Empeze mis cursos de latín hace casi un año y media, y los de español hace menos de un año (entonces lo siento si cometo errores!).
Pero si me hiciste creer que el espanol era tu lengua materna! Por qué elegiste espanol y no italiano, si puedo preguntar?

Créeme, si empiezas aprender el latín, pronto vas a conocer la gramática española, inglés y de cualquier otro idioma que conozcas mucho mejor!
No tengo mas remedio que creerte, porque me lo dicen desde que era chico. Y para que piensas usar el latin?
 

Pacifica

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Bueno, sobre todo lo aprendo para el placer... Pero puede ser un poco utile si aprendes otros idiomas, como hay muchas palabras que vienen del latín in muchas lenguas, a veces te ayuda a adivinar la significación de algunas palabras, o a memorizarlas. Y además, como latín es un poco un "entrenamiento intensivo de gramática", pienso que también puede ayudarte a comprender y memorizar las reglas gramáticas de otros idiomas, aunque sean mucho diferentes de las del latin, solo porque estarás acostumbrado a todos los terminados etc...
Pero seguro que no es necessario saber el latín para eso, supongo que se puede aprender de una otra manera :D Mucha gente aprende idiomas modernos sin saber latín, claro!

A mi me gusta mucho la etimologia y la historia de la evolución de los idiomas, y claro que latín es muy importante para eso. También me gusta la historia en general y lo encuentro agradable poder leer textos originales en latin. Y encuentro la lengua en si misma hermosa.

Por qué elegiste espanol y no italiano, si puedo preguntar?
No sé realmente... Me sentía más atraida hasta el español.
 

root

Member

Yo no hablo un ingles fluido, pero la maquina
te senala las faltas de grafia. Y como 60 de
cada 100 palabras inglesas provienen del latin, cuando quiero decir
algo y no conozco la palabra inglesa, entro la palabra espanola y
solo variando un poco el spelling la saco. En cambio tu ingles me
parece muy bueno. Lo hablabas desde pequena?

Si en menos de un ano aprediste tanto latin como a mi me parece,
entonces vale la pena tomarse el trabajo aunque sea solo para aprender
aleman. Y sabrias mantener un tete a tete en latin?

La etimologia me gustaba de chico porque el diccionario de la Academia
usaba el alfabeto griego para las etimologias (ahora usan las transcripciones
latinas o como se llamen). Yo no entendia ni jota pero siempre me
senti atraido por lo que es hermetico.

El latin no podria ser de otra manera (tu dijiste hermoso). Es la lengua
que hablan los pueblos civilizados de Europa, aunque con algunas
metamorfosis.
 
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