Sidus clarum

[Timotheus]

Salvete omnes!

I am looking for a translation for this poem. Gratias tibi ago!

Sidus clarum


Sidus clarum
puellarum,
flos e decus omnium,
rosa veris,
quae videris
clarior quam lilium.

Tui forma
me de norma
regulari proiicit.
Tuus visus
atque risus
Veneri me subicit.

Pro te deae
Cithareae
libens porto vincula,
et alati
sui nati
corde fero spicula.

Ur in lignis
ardet ignis
siccis cum subducitur,
sic mens mea
pro te, dea,
fervet et comburitur.

Dic quis durus,
quis tam purus,
carens omni crimine,
esse potest,
quem non dotes
tuae possint flectere?

Vivat Cato,
Dei dato
qui sic fuit rigidus,
in amore
tuo flore
captus erit fervidus.

Fore suum
crinem tuum
Venus ipsa cuperet,
si videret;
et doloret
suum quod exuperet.

Frons et gula
sine ruga
et visus angelicus
te caelestem,
non terrestrem,
denotant hominibus.

Tibi dentes
sunt candentes,
pulcre sedent labia,
que si quando
ore tango
mellea dant suavia.

Et tuarum
pupillarum
forma satis parvula
non tumescit,
sed albescit,
nive magis candida.

Quodquod manus,
venter planus
et statura gracilis
te sic formant
et cohornant
quod nimis es habilis.

Nitent crura.
Sed quid plura?
deas pulchritudine
et caelestes
et terrestres
superas et genere.

Et idcirco,
pia virgo,
nulli sit mirabile,
si mens mea
pro te, dea,
lesa sit a Venere.

Quare precor,
mundi decor,
te satis summopere,
ut amoris,
non doloris,
causa sis hoc pectore.

 

[cepasaccus]

Who wrote this poem? This is a modern poem, isn't it?

 

[Cato]

Who wrote this poem? This is a modern poem, isn't it?

My initial guess is this is from the Carmina Burana--it cetainly fits the mood and rhythm of poems found in this manuscript.

The poem is clearly taken from this page (the error flos e decus for flos et decus is reproduced), but I've not as of yet been able to find it in the Carmina Burana MSS.

Anyway, let me get this started; this could be an interesting group project:

Sidus clarum
puellarum,
flos e(t) decus omnium,
rosa veris,
quae videris
clarior quam lilium.

"A gleaming star
among girls,
the flower and glory of everything,
You who seem to be
a rose of spring
more lovely than the lily."

I suspect the "lily" here--especially in springtime--is a reference to Christ. If it weren't for the rest of the poem, I'd say this was about Christ's mother Mary, but I don't think a sacred Christian text would talk about Citharea...

 

[Timotheus]

Salve!
Yes, that is the page where I got the text from. A fragment of the poem is in this Teach Yourself: Beginner Latin book I have. I looked to see if there was any more to the poem and found that site. The book I have says it is 12th century, Anonymous.

 

[cinefactus]

Tui forma
me de norma
regulari proiicit.
Tuus visus
atque risus
Veneri me subicit.

Your beauty
drives me forth
from the normal pattern (presumably pattern of verse)
Your appearance
and your smile
make me subject to Venus

The metre is very reminiscent of the Carmina Burana...

But I can't quite figure out why it is tui forma

 

[QMF]

Tui forma-that is, the form "of you." I think both tua and tui can be used in this context (I've never been completely certain of when the genitive forms of ego, tu, nos, and vos are used and when the possessive adjectives are used instead. Yet another one of those things that I sort of know intuitively but could never actually try to explain.)

 

[cinefactus]

Thanks QMF. That is what I figured it must be, although I can't find support for this in either the NLS or Sidwell's Mediaeval Latin...

Which makes you wonder why the author chose this, rather than tua. Both would fit the metre, and he/she uses tuus visus later on :wondering:

 

[QMF]

Actually...they are not the same metrically. Tui is short-long; tua is short-short. That may be why the poet chose to use tui instead of tua.

 

[cinefactus]

You may well be right, although I had the impression that the vowel length was not usually considered in Medieaval Latin poetry...

 

[Iynx]

Pellucid star
of girls you are,
the flower and the dilly;
in everything,
a rose in spring,
and fairer than the lily.

***********************************

Proiicit? Is that an alternate spelling of proiecit?

 

[QMF]

You may well be right, although I had the impression that the vowel length was not usually considered in Medieaval Latin poetry...

I was not familiar with that...this may very well be the case. In an accentual meter they would indeed be the same. Care to clear this up, Iynx? You and Cinefactus are the most mediaevally experienced of the lot of us I think, and Cinefactus is as uncertain as I am in this case.

By the way: amusing aacbbc rhyme scheme and meter there, Iynx.

 

[Iynx]

Pellucid star
of girls you are,
the flower and the dilly;
in everything
a rose in spring,
and fairer than the lily.

Your gorgeous form
Me from my normal
foursquare life has driven.
Your face, I find,
by smiles my mind
to Venus' rule has given.

 

[Iynx]

The rhyme-scheme is not mine, of course; it's in the Latin.

And yes, I think this is stress-meter, not the weight-meter of classical times.

I think if you read it out loud you will hear the pattern:

Sidus clarum
puellarum,
flos e decus omnium,
rosa veris,
quae videris
clarior quam lilium.

XO XO
xO XO
XO XO XOx
XO XO
XO XO
XO xX XOx

Tui forma
me de norma
regulari proiicit.
Tuus visus
atque risus
Veneri me subicit

XO XO
XO XO
xO XO XOx
XO XO
XO XO
XO xX XOx

I have chosen to use mostly iambs where the Latin has trochees because I am not skilled enough to do otherwise. But I have tried to keep the basic pattern of syllables.

In keeping with my usual policy in group translations I have not looked ahead. If this turns out to be a religious poem the light-verse tone I have adopted may end up looking pretty silly.


**********************************************************

I have read a lot of the Carmina Burana, but I don't remember this one. Can anyone cite a number?

 

[Iynx]

Funny what happens when one gets old. Sitting around late at night, translating some Latin verse, really rather silly verse it seems to be, when one comes upon a few harmless lines:

Tuus visus
atque risus
Veneri me subicit...

And all of a sudden one is seeing and hearing and smelling, for heaven's sake, a girl one hasn't really seen or heard of in half a century. Funny what happens, when one gets old.

 

[QMF]

Indeed so it is...though admittedly the Latin's rhymes are not quite as light-hearted as yours.

And how lucky you are to be old, Iynx...how lucky you are. So many things to look back on.

 

[Cato]

Funny what happens when one gets old. Sitting around late at night, translating some Latin verse, really rather silly verse it seems to be, when one comes upon a few harmless lines:

Tuus visus
atque risus
Veneri me subicit...

And all of a sudden one is seeing and hearing and smelling, for heaven's sake, a girl one hasn't really seen or heard of in half a century. Funny what happens, when one gets old.

I'm reminded of a line from the film Citizen Kane, when Mr. Bernstein--probably Kane's greatest admirer--says how "A fellow will remember a lot of things you wouldn't think he'd remember. You take me. One day, back in 1896, I was crossing over to Jersey on the ferry, and as we pulled out, there was another ferry pulling in, and on it there was a girl waiting to get off. A white dress she had on. She was carrying a white parasol. I only saw her for one second. She didn't see me at all, but I'll bet a month hasn't gone by since that I haven't thought of that girl."

That speech has always stuck with me; what odd and magical things, our memories...

 

[Iynx]

Pro te deae
Cithareae
libens porto vincula,
et alati
sui nati
corde fero spicula.

Ur in lignis
ardet ignis
siccis cum subducitur,
sic mens mea
pro te, dea,
fervet et comburitur.

Literally this third stanza must be:

"For you I glady bear the bonds of the goddess
Cytherean [that is, Venus], and carry the points of their winged offspring in [my] heart."

I don't know Ur as a Latin word (except as the name of Abram's hometown in Genesis). I suspect this present Ur is a mistranscription of Ut, and that the fourth stanza means literally:

"As the fire blazes in the dry fuel-wood as it is pulled away, so my mind for you, goddess, burns and is consumed."

Timotheus: is it Ut rather than Ur?

More broadly: can anyone identify this poem by number in the Carmina Burana? In an effort to clear up the Ur/Ut question I have looked for it in the (extensive) portion of the Beuren material availble in the Bibliotheca Augustana, but have been unable to find it.

 

[cinefactus]

would you consider the last part of the 3rd verse to be:

and I bear the arrows of her winged offspring...?

I presume it is a reference to Cupid...

 

[Iynx]

Yes, I'm sure you're right, Cinefacte.

 

[cinefactus]

Dic quis durus,
quis tam purus,
carens omni crimine,
esse potest,
quem non dotes
tuae possint flectere?


Name anyone who can be so hard,
who is so pure,
lacking all guilt,
upon whom your talents
could not prevail