Roman women's life expectancy

[Hawkwood]

Rather, the more reliable studies seem to based on fragmentary administrative documents. For example, Ulpian's life table (wikipedia link), papyri containing fragmentary census records from Roman Egypt

Pride of place in the surviving textual data it would seem. Although the majority of its census data is concentrated in an area (Fayyum) which 'may have been unhealthy even by the low standards of the region.' As fascinating as the data from these several hundred households must be to researchers in this field, the findings, as the paper acknowledges, can only shed light on a specific place and time. A considerable amount of time though.

 

[Avunculus H]

It's interesting to me that a Roman couldn't even run for consul until age 42 (for most of the 2nd and 1st century BC, at least), so there must have been a pretty limited pool of people who were even eligible in any given year. Livy, for what it's worth, describes 63 as a full life ("[Cicero] vixit tres et sexaginta annos, ut, si vis afuisset, ne immatura quidem mors videri possit." — "Cicero lived 63 years, such that the death could not even be seen as untimely, if it weren't for the violence involved").

What normally is being discussed is life expectancy at birth, which in pre-modern societies is skewed downward by high infant mortality. That doesn't mean that the number of 40-year-olds was low; those who survived childhood had a good chance to live till 50 or 60.

 

[nomenutentis]

One could probably compile remarks like that and get a pretty good image of what an aristocratic Roman considered a normal lifespan for an aristocrat

Yes, although these sorts of remarks can be difficult to generalise from. In the first place, life expectancy from birth is not an especially meaningful metric for any particular person's experience of age and death. It can vary significantly within a population (there is a 7 year disparity between the highest and lowest life expectancy by state today in the USA, 12 years if you go highest female to lowest male) and when its being so massively offset by child-mortality, it won't reflect the way that people perceive aging in society, because a life expectancy in the 20s won't mean that people are typically actually dying in their 20s. This is all before we get into the vagueries of interpretation. For example, while 63 would probably not be viewed as "not untimely", but certainly we don't need to get to 79-80 for many people today to have such a reaction. (I'd imagine that we could find opinions along those lines being voiced about some as early as their late 60s and certainly by their mid-70s.)

There are a number of medieval comments like this as well that are equally interesting, though no less problematic to interpret.One of the more famous is William of Malmesbury's comment about his age in the introduction to his commentary on Lamentations: "Quadragenarius sum hodie, admouique pedem <ad> medietatem metae quam diuinus psalmista ponit hominum uitae, dicens: Dies annorum nostrorum in ipsis septuaginta annis. Si autem in potentatibus octoginta anni, et amplius eorum labor et dolor. (Today I am forty, and I draw near the midpoint of the course that the divine psalmist set out for the life of man, saying: The days of our years in them are threescore and ten years. But if in the strong they be fourscore years: and what is more of them is labour and sorrow. [Ps. 89.10])

an area (Fayyum) which 'may have been unhealthy even by the low standards of the region.' ... the findings, as the paper acknowledges, can only shed light on a specific place and time

Oh no doubt! And indeed he finds a life expectancy of 22 for Women (who are apparently by far the best represented in the date) in that region. But it's not like the data we have for Rome is radically different. Both information about membership of the Senate and certain city councils as well as Ulpian's life table suggest that life-expectancy in Italy was likely also in the 20s, although Scheidel seems to prefer an estimate in the mid- to high-20s or just around 30. (This would not be out of keeping with the modern comparison I note above, where regional variation likewise ranges between 5-10 years, although the variation within Europe which is closer to 15 years (or 13 if we restrict ourselves to the EU) is maybe a better comparison.)

 

[Pacifica]

Quadragenarius sum hodie, admouique pedem <ad> medietatem metae

My mother told me that on her 40th birthday she thought "Yay, I'm midway through it!" and was glad at the thought.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

Personal opinions on abortion aside, it has probably always existed, and I would find it strange to lament the fact that modern methods are less of a health hazard to the mother.

To avoid derailing this thread, I have responded elsewhere --> THREAD: woman-mortality-in-abortion

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Last night, I was struck by the description of Pudentilla's status. That is, Apuleius's wife, aged about 60 years:
"Dicat hic pius filius, quid in eo tempore sequius agentem uel loquentem matrem suam propter insaniam uiderit; neget eam rationibus uilliconum et upilionum et equisonum sollertissime subscripsisse;"
So, Pudentilla had shepherds, overseers and stable boys. That property and staff had to be passed by inheritance due to her son's, as agreed in the will.
Health wise, Pudentilla had some issues so marriage was recommended by her doctors.
It's clear too Pudentilla was competent in Greek, written and spoken.

 

[Pacifica]

Health wise, Pudentilla had some issues so marriage was recommended by her doctors.

That part made me both laugh and cringe a bit. Apuleius is essentially declaring publicly that his wife's doctors diagnosed her as in need of being fucked!

 

[Pacifica]

You, of course, put it much more politely, lol.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

You, of course, put it much more politely, lol.

Yes, such is the case. What I couldn't work out is why it's assumed Pudentilla somehow endured zero climax for want of a man!! There's a great scene in the movie "Pleasantville" where the mother character in the 1950s soap opera (Pleasantville) has to be told by a hip girl from the future how to make use of the bath tub. The case being in Pleasantville, there was no sex and the firemen only rescued cats stuck up a tree.
Added to that, at school they taught us that masturbation makes you blind. And we believed it.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

We should note, too, that Herennius Rufus, his wife and daughter made Madonna look like Mother Theresa. The daughter married Pontianus and thereby became Pudentillae nurus. What a family, though. Herennius Rufus held these swinger parties to increase his general income. What amused me is the very aged translation had translated "comisatores" (the party-goers) by the term "wanton gallants". Would any modern English speaker fathom what a wanton gallant is?
Pudentilla seems educated and nice but it crossed my mind more than once that Apuleius had gotten himself mixed up with a sleezy crowd.

 

[AoM]

Thanks for bumping this thread so I could ignore a user with some nauseating posts here and elsewhere. Old ass dudes wanting control over women’s bodies will never not be infuriating.

 

[Pacifica]

Thanks for bumping this thread so I could ignore a user with some nauseating posts here and elsewhere. Old ass dudes wanting control over women’s bodies will never not be infuriating.

Please disagree civilly.

 

[AoM]

Please disagree civilly.

There's nothing to disagree with, thankfully, since I have the user ignored.

 

[Pacifica]

The point is: please refrain from such rude posts in the future (but you're of course free to ignore people).

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Feminism as a social force did finally have a good innings under Helagabalus, his mother and grandmother. Women were allowed into the Senate house, as well as having their own Senate.

 

[Clemens]

My mother told me that on her 40th birthday she thought "Yay, I'm midway through it!" and was glad at the thought.

I didn't think of it at the time, but 40 was likely more than midpoint in my case, which I'm ok with.

 

[kev67]

I am reading a book called Heresy by Catherine Nixey. In chapter 2 she says life expectancy in antiquity was 25. Of those who survived their first year, most would survive until their 30s and 40s, but only 5% would reach 60. She does not say anything about different life expectancies for men and women. She cites V.Nutton (2013) pp. 21-2 and Frier (2000) p. 788.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

It depends on the time of Roman civilization. From Marcus Aurelius onwards, things became less stable. The pestilentia under Marcus Aurelius killed many thousands. It decimated the army. Civil wars creep in a bit.later under Alexander Severus, with the army actually being beaten back by the angry mobs. Legions started to elect emperors without the Senate. Latin wasn't so commonly.spoken in the towns and cities.
Yet, at the time of, say, Augustus or Tiberius, I imagine life was far more stable. You could find good food and wine and attend the baths. You could farm land or rent property.

 

[Clemens]

Yet, at the time of, say, Augustus or Tiberius, I imagine life was far more stable. You could find good food and wine and attend the baths. You could farm land or rent property.

Yes, or you could be a slave.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Yes, or you could be a slave.

Yet, many slaves had a good deal. Elagabalus invited the servi to his lupanaria. The eunuches made a lot of money promising to ask favours for people from the emperor, and got rich.