Neque vero sufficit huic tam foedae labi abstergendae

MichaelJYoo

Member

I am in the process of translating a theological treatise but am at a loss at how to translate these passages, or at least make them less clunky. Any help or comments on my translation would be appreciated! Whatever text is unbolded is simply provided as context to help translate the bolded section.

"Neque vero sufficit huic tam foedae labi abstergendae aut tam palpabili errori incrustando, dilutum & novitium illud εὔρημα quod nuper in Synodo a Praeside allatum ex quibusdam, si bene mentem eius perceperunt, intelleximus:"

(But neither is that dilute and novice εὔρημα [invention] that the President lifted from certain men at the Synod, if they understood his mind well, and that we have understood, enough to remove this very repugnant defect and to cover this palpable error.)

"Unde consequitur, actionem vel passionem illam, quae reconciliando & placando alicui qui iam irasci desiit, & offendenti parti non tantum reconciliatus est, sed eandem etiam summo amore diligit, suscipitur, actionem vel passionem reconciliatoriam, redemtoriam, & meritoriam nullo modo dici posse, imo supervacaneam & frustaneam esse: Quandoquidem autem actionem frustaneam Christo Redemtori nostro gloriosissimo tribuere religio nobis est, hinc est, quod peccatores ullos absolute voluntate citra huius meriti tanquam antecedentis causae intuitum, ad vitam aeternam electos esse negemus, quia electi & dilecti summa ac peremtoria dilectione, reconciliari & redimi nec possunt, nec necesse habent. "Quare cum hoc ipsum a Contra-Remonstrantibus & eorum asseclis aperte satis passim affirmetur, qua ratione satisfactionem Iesu Christi tueri possint, ipsi viderint, nobis certum est. . ."

(But since our religion attributes this action—which they make vain—to Christ our most glorious Redeemer, we therefore deny that any sinners have been elected to eternal life by an absolute will without consideration of this merit as an antecedent cause. The reason is that those who are chosen and beloved with the utmost and a peremptory love, neither can nor need to be reconciled and redeemed. Wherefore, because the Contra-Remonstrants and their followers everywhere affirm this openly enough, let them see for themselves how they can uphold the satisfaction of Jesus Christ.)

"Si eligere & reprobare aliquas personas singulares velim, ad declarandam misericordiam & justitiam meam, anne cum peccatrices erunt, idoneum medium reperire potero, quo satisfiat justitiae meae, ut misericordiam circa eas, quas eligere cuperem, exercere possim:"

(If I will to elect and reprobate certain individual persons to declare my mercy and justice, or when they will be sinners , I will be able to discover a fit medium by which My justice may be satisfied, that I may be able to exercise mercy towards those whom I have desired to choose.)

"Hisce extra omne dubium suppositis, fieri non potest, quin Deus filium suum dare voluerit paucis istis, ubi per pcatum miserae factae viderentur, redimendis, aliis deserendis & puniendis: Si enim affectum tantum aliquem in Deo fuisse statuatur, qui in decretum nondum desinat, tum ratio nulla dari posset, cur affectus ille generalis non fuerit erga omnes creaturas, quatenus tales, quia ille prorsus uniformis est in Deo, cum creaturae qua tales sive condendae sive conditae bonae sint, aut quatenus in lapsu considerantur pariter miserae ob peccatum primi parentis, sed circa singulares diversimode se habuerit: & ut pro his satisfieret justitiae suae, non pro illis voluerit; ἀυτὸ τὸ πρᾶγμα βοᾷ."

(With these suppositions beyond doubt, it is impossible that God willed to give His Son for the redemption of those few who seem to have been made miserable by sin, but for the abandonment and punishment of others. For if it is established that some affection was in God that does not yet terminate in a decree, then no reason could be provided why that general affection was not toward all creatures insofar as they are such but has exhibited itself variously toward individuals and would satisfy His justice for some but has not willed ἀυτὸ τὸ πρᾶγμα βοᾷ for others. The reason is because that affection is altogether uniform in God since creatures as such, whether they are to be created or have been created, are good; or, because insofar as they are considered in the fall on account of the sin of their first parent, they are equally miserable.)
 
 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens

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I'll look at the rest later, but here's the first bit.

"Neque vero sufficit huic tam foedae labi abstergendae aut tam palpabili errori incrustando, dilutum & novitium illud εὔρημα quod nuper in Synodo a Praeside allatum ex quibusdam, si bene mentem eius perceperunt, intelleximus:"

(But neither is that dilute and novice εὔρημα [invention] that the President lifted from certain men at the Synod, if they understood his mind well, and that we have understood, enough to remove this very repugnant defect and to cover this palpable error.)
Ex quibusdam seems to go with intelleximus. I think it's best to take allatum as allatum esse, i.e. an indirect statement, and intellximus as more like "we have been led to understand" or "we have been informed" or "we understand on the basis of reports ex quibusdam."

The εὕρημα that we have been informed by some people — assuming those people correctly understood his intention — has been brought up in the Synod by the President.

Basically the si bene mentem eius perceperunt is a way to avoid directly saying that the President had a bad idea — the author is essentially saying "I wasn't personally present at the Synod, and there's a chance that my informants misinterpreted the President's words, but assuming they accurately represented his εὕρημα, it's not a very good one." I'll leave it to you to word that better, but that's the syntax and sense.
 

MichaelJYoo

Member

Thank you! So it's something like: "But neither is that dilute and novice invention that we have been informed by some--assuming that they correctly understood his intention--has been brought up in the Synod by the President enough to remove this very repugnant defect and to cover this palpable error."
 
 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
in orbe lacteo
Yes, though I'd say the sense of novitium is "new/unheard-of."


"Unde consequitur, actionem vel passionem illam, quae reconciliando & placando alicui qui iam irasci desiit, & offendenti parti non tantum reconciliatus est, sed eandem etiam summo amore diligit, suscipitur, actionem vel passionem reconciliatoriam, redemtoriam, & meritoriam nullo modo dici posse, imo supervacaneam & frustaneam esse: Quandoquidem autem actionem frustaneam Christo Redemtori nostro gloriosissimo tribuere religio nobis est, hinc est, quod peccatores ullos absolute voluntate citra huius meriti tanquam antecedentis causae intuitum, ad vitam aeternam electos esse negemus, quia electi & dilecti summa ac peremtoria dilectione, reconciliari & redimi nec possunt, nec necesse habent. "Quare cum hoc ipsum a Contra-Remonstrantibus & eorum asseclis aperte satis passim affirmetur, qua ratione satisfactionem Iesu Christi tueri possint, ipsi viderint, nobis certum est. . ."

(But since our religion attributes this action—which they make vain—to Christ our most glorious Redeemer, we therefore deny that any sinners have been elected to eternal life by an absolute will without consideration of this merit as an antecedent cause. The reason is that those who are chosen and beloved with the utmost and a peremptory love, neither can nor need to be reconciled and redeemed. Wherefore, because the Contra-Remonstrants and their followers everywhere affirm this openly enough, let them see for themselves how they can uphold the satisfaction of Jesus Christ.)
For the first clause, religio est is a phrase meaning "there is a religious scruple about..." i.e., counterintuitively, religio nobis est actually means "it would be an offense against our religion." (the word religio had a slightly different sense in Classical Latin, and this is being preserved here). So the sense is "Since it would be against our religion to attribute to Christ our most glorious Redeemer a vain action, that is the reason why we deny..."

Technically absolute and voluntate, assuming your transcription is accurate (and not a typo for absoluta) don't go together, since absolute is an adverb. But the sense is not that different.

I think "atonement" might capture the sense of satisfactionem better than "satisfaction" in modern English.

Otherwise everything is good.


"Si eligere & reprobare aliquas personas singulares velim, ad declarandam misericordiam & justitiam meam, anne cum peccatrices erunt, idoneum medium reperire potero, quo satisfiat justitiae meae, ut misericordiam circa eas, quas eligere cuperem, exercere possim:"

(If I will to elect and reprobate certain individual persons to declare my mercy and justice, or when they will be sinners , I will be able to discover a fit medium by which My justice may be satisfied, that I may be able to exercise mercy towards those whom I have desired to choose.)
Could you give more of the sentence that comes after? I think anne might be turning the entire sentence into a somewhat doubting question, almost like "do you really think that when they are sinners I will be able to discover...?", but I'm not 100% sure.
 

MichaelJYoo

Member

Thank you so much! This is so helpful. In the phrase, "Religio nobis est," how is the "nobis" functioning?

This is the broader context:

Conditionalis omnis propositio cum nihil ponat in esse, fieri nequit ut conclusio categorica ex ea deducatur, nisi prius vel antecedens vel consequens categorice assumtum sit: Pone itaque hanc conditonalem propositionem primum a Deo ab aeterno, iuxta nostrum concipiendi modum factam esse. Si eligere & reprobare aliquas personas singulares velim, ad declarandam misericordiam &
justitiam meam, anne cum peccatrices erunt, idoneum medium reperire potero, quo satisfiat justitiae meae, ut misericordiam circa eas, quas eligere cuperem, exercere possim: pone inquam hanc conditionalem propositionem a Deo conceptam esse: Necessitas rei postulat, ut hic concipiamus Deum absolute velle, ut justitiae suae satisfiat pro peccatis. Itaque cum Deus id absolute velit, necessum esse, ut id concipiatur voluisse vel antequam singulares aliquas personas absolute eligeret, vel postquam elegisset: alterutro enim modo subsumendum fuit: Atqui volo eligere aliquas, & cum peccatrices erunt, modum habeo quo satisfaciam justitiae meae & illas redimam, vel postquam justitiae meae satisfactum erit, tum eligam eas.

What I have is:

Because every conditional proposition puts nothing into being, it is impossible to derive a categorical conclusion from it unless the antecedent or consequent is first categorically assumed . Suppose, therefore, that God first made this conditional proposition from eternity, according to our mode of conception : If I will to elect and reprobate certain individual persons to declare my mercy and justice, or when they will be sinners , I will be able to discover a fit medium to satisfy My justice so that I can exercise mercy toward those whom I have desired to choose—Suppose, I say, that God conceived this conditional proposition. The necessity of the matter demands that we conceive of God here as absolutely willing that satisfaction be made to His justice on account of sins. Therefore, since God absolutely wills this, it is necessary for us to conceive of Him as having willed this either before He absolutely elected certain individual persons or after He had elected them. For it must be subsumed in one of these two ways :

1. I will to choose some persons, and when they will be sinners, I have a mode to satisfy My justice and redeem them.

2. After I satisfy My justice , I will elect those persons.

I'm just not sure what the "anne" is here.
 
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