HISTORIA SEPTEM SAPIENTUM

[ChoraulaSilens]

I forward a paragraph or two below, in vulgar, very late Latin.
These stories are believed to be very ancient, passed down to ancient Greece from earlier civilization. Some late mediaeval Latinist put the stories into Latin, though the text almost borders on Neo Latin, with some deviant spelling (que, instead of quae).
I thought it odd nobody has edited the text where it needs to be put into standard Latin. Maybe it's thought it should be left as it is.
The story extract below deals with the magpie - a much revered bird in ancient Rome. "pre nimio celo" may represent language at the time of translation, maybe 13th century. Likewise quesivit, (quesivit)
These are good stories and entertaining.

Quidam homo decoram nimis habebat uxorem et erat çelans super eam. Quadam vero die quesivit ire in aliam civitatem et pre nimio çelo quem habebat in coniugem emit unam avem que vulgo vocatur pica et posuit eam in cubili suo. Cui dixit: Aspice et excuba et omnia que gesta fuerint mihi, cum venero, narra.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Note the typical mediaeval
"omnia que gesta fuerint mihi, cum venero, narra"

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

"In several contexts the Apkallu are seven demigods, sometimes described as part man and part fish or bird, associated with human wisdom; these creatures are often referred to in scholarly literature as the Seven Sages. Sometimes the sages are associated with a specific primeval king. After the great flood (see Epic Of Gilgamesh , further sages and kings are listed. Post-deluge, the sages are considered human, and in some texts are distinguished by being referred to as Ummanu, not Apkallu."

 

[Pacifica]

(que, instead of quae)

E for ae (and oe) is very common in medieval spelling. These were all pronounced the same at the time.

On the other hand, ç for z is a new one on me.

 

[Clemens]

On the other hand, ç for z is a new one on me.

My understanding is that it was sometimes used to represent /ts/ .

 

[Pacifica]

I suspected that, though I was more familiar with its use to represent /tʃ/ (in other languages, not Latin). /ts/ would correspond to the German pronunciation of "z"—and would basically just be the unvoiced version of the more standard Latin pronunciation /dz/. I can't be sure which pronunciation the author of this text meant to represent or approximate with that character (/tʃ/ seems unlikely, though who knows).

 

[Pacifica]

Do we know the geographical origin of this text?

 

[Pacifica]

And, for that matter, whether the spelling in the version used here is true to an original manuscript? (Peculiarities can also come from editors following their own conventions.)

 

[Pacifica]

This use of "ç" could come from a person (author or editor) in whose native language "ç" represented whatever pronunciation they gave it whereas "z" represented a different sound (or wasn't in use).

 

[Clemens]

I suspected that, though I was more familiar with its use to represent /tʃ/ (in other languages, not Latin). /ts/ would correspond to the German pronunciation of "z"—and would basically just be the unvoiced version of the more standard Latin pronunciation /dz/. I can't be sure which pronunciation the author of this text meant to represent or approximate with that character (/tʃ/ seems unlikely, though who knows).

It would also correspond to the pronunciation of c in front of e or i, or z, in late Gallo-Roman Latin or early Old French.

 

[nomenutentis]

ç for z is characteristic of late medieval Italian Textualis. In fact the two examples that Derolez gives are both in vernacular texts, though I've seen it used in manuscripts of Latin works as well. This particular translation of the Seven sages (there are lots!) is drawn from the edition of Hilka (Alfons Hilka, ed., Historia septem sapientum I: Eine bisher unbekannte lateinische Übersetzung einer orientalischen Fassung der Sieben weisen Meister (Mischle Sendabar) (Universitätsverlag Winter, 1912)), which is itself based on a single manuscript: Berlin, Staatsbibliothek, Lat. qu. 618, whose pecularities Hilka reproduces. ("Der Abdruck ... sucht alle Eigentümlichkeiten der Hs. nach Möglichkeit zu wahren..." p. XXI.) And since this manuscript was written in Bergamo in 1407 (albeit by a certain Johannes de Saxonia!?), the use of c-caudata is not particularly surprising.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Do we know the geographical origin of this text?

I found it purely by chance. It didn't show up on the Latin library list and yet it exists. Some very superficial digging suggests the stories (also known as Sinbad) existed in very ancient Greece but seem to have existed in more ancient civilizations.
Someone translated from Greek to Latin in the late mediaeval period. Yet, it's not great mediaeval Latin in my view, although fortunately there is the bonus it's easy to read.
The main attraction is these stories are interesting, lively and very ancient.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Here's a riddle. Ages ago I recall searching high and low for "macillena" and the closest I could get was some kind of drums:

"Mox iratus dominus uxorem de domo expulit. Illa autem ad domum cuiusdam vicine sue ivit et ille picam post eam misit. Mulier vero dixit ancille sue: Cur turbasti me dicendo facinora mea marito meo? Ancilla dixit: Non, domina, absit! Non ego feci talia, sed pica dixit domino nostro, quem adhuc non habeo notum. Respondit mulier: Faciamus ergo sibi aliquid inginii. Confestim tulit par unum macillenarum et inposuit super solarium domus et barile unum plenum aqua et scopam...."

So, husband sends his magpie out to spy and the woman accuses her maid, not knowing the bird had been spying. (Frumentarius, or index, indicis are used in the H.A. for "a spy")
Then they seem to create a pyrotechnics and thunder show to distract the birds spying. If anyone can locate "macillena" feel free to enlighten.

 

[Pacifica]

Found this.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

Found this.

Well done. Hopefully I can read the stories over time.
A lovely video here about magpies

 

[nomenutentis]

Found this.

That's a collection of Hilka's editorial work. The Dolopathos of Johannes de Alta Silva, edited under Historia septem sapientum II is the more widespread version of the text in Latin. And this is the version that gets modern reprints and translations (there is e.g. a French trans by Brepols, which I believe reprints Hilka's text and I see theres a new German translation, which I assume does likewise though I've not checked).

There are also four more versioned edited by Roth, Historia septem sapientum : Überlieferung und textgeschichtliche Edition.

Along the same lines that file contains a version of Petrus Alfonsi's Clerical discipline (similar sort of exempla collection) and a version of the Alexander legend.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

That's a collection of Hilka's editorial work. The Dolopathos of Johannes de Alta Silva, edited under Historia septem sapientum II is the more widespread version of the text in Latin. And this is the version that gets modern reprints and translations (there is e.g. a French trans by Brepols, which I believe reprints Hilka's text and I see theres a new German translation, which I assume does likewise though I've not checked).

There are also four more versioned edited by Roth, Historia septem sapientum : Überlieferung und textgeschichtliche Edition.

Along the same lines that file contains a version of Petrus Alfonsi's Clerical discipline (similar sort of exempla collection) and a version of the Alexander legend.

Seems to me a good idea to edit the text, with orthodox Latin inserted in brackets.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

This is "way out!" in the psychedelic sense:

"Et venit ad quendam fontem, de quo quicumque bibebat si masculus erat vertebatur in feminam, et si femina erat vertebatur in masculum. Et ipse nesciebat, sed bibit, et versus est in feminam et cepit lacrimari et timebat adhuc bibere de aqua. Et ipse mestus (maestus) mansit in illa nocte ibi, et ecce turba puellarum venit et ludebant et cantabant iuxta fontem. Surrexit etiam ipse ad ludendum cum eis, quia credebant se factum esse strigam. Interrogaverunt eum puelle (puellae) et dixerunt: Quis es tu et unde venis? Ipse autem narravit omnia que acciderant sibi."

Some comments, but be aware Latin grammar isn't my speciality. Still, something to ponder.
"quicumque bibebat" I would have expected a subjunctive here, but any thoughts?
The use of "se" here (in bold) is the most unusual I have seen. Maybe credo, credere should be singular and that then appears normal to me, referring back to the metamorphosised boy.
So, it's a magic fountain and switches genders of those who drink.

 

[Pacifica]

"quicumque bibebat" I would have expected a subjunctive here, but any thoughts?

Classical Latin typically uses the indicative in that type of clause. Late Latin sometimes goes with the subjunctive instead, but not this time!

The use of "se" here (in bold) is the most unusual I have seen. Maybe credo, credere should be singular and that then appears normal to me, referring back to the metamorphosised boy.

Some versions online have the singular, which seems to make more sense. Not that a misuse of se would be particularly surprising in Latin of this period; it happens relatively often; but I can't make sense of the clause with the girls as the subject in any case.

 

[ChoraulaSilens]

cepit lacrimari = in good mediaeval Latin this would be "coepit flere", I think.
"Quicumque bibebat" in Apolonius Rex Tyris could well be quicumque biberit, factus fuerit ....