General(ish) Question: did early Roman writers do much looking at Egyptian script?

 

Anna Mauricia Bron

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I reckon that if any Roman writers gave much thought to Egyptian writing, people reading here would know for which writers I could best look... (if you ask why, I must warn you, the answer is even weirder than this question.)

ever hopeful,

A.M. Bron
 

Pacifica

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did early Roman writers do much looking at Egyptian script?
Probably not, because I can't remember reading about Egyptian script in any Roman work, and a quick online search didn't yield any references. That doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something to be found somewhere—but if there is, it mustn't be "much".
(if you ask why, I must warn you, the answer is even weirder than this question.)
So... why? :p
 

Pacifica

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Just a few things I found:

According to Pliny, some people believed that writing was invented in Egypt by Mercury—which isn't far from the truth; hieroglyphics may not have been the very first writing system in the world, but it is very old and it's the one that both the Greek and Latin (along with the Arabic and Hebrew and probably others) alphabets ultimately descended from, so it's the first of that family. The same legend about Mercury is also mentioned here and here and here.

The same author makes a brief mention of Egyptian script here.

Valerius Maximus claims that Pythagoras learned Egyptian script.

Other brief mentions of hieroglyphics can be found at the following links:

Cornelius Tacitus, Historiae 2.60.1
Scriptores Historiae Augustae, Opilius Macrinus Iuli Capitolini 34.1.1
Scriptores Historiae Augustae, Opilius Macrinus Iuli Capitolini 22.9.1

Servius Honoratus says that "before letters were invented", the Egyptians symbolized the year by a picture of a serpent biting its own tail. Not sure what to make of that (did Servius consider hieroglyphs to be letters or not? In any case, the serpent doesn't seem to match the hieroglyph for "year") but I'll drop it here: Maurus Servius Honoratus, In Vergilii Georgicon Libros 5.85.1
 

Clemens

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I wonder if Servius, like many people today, though that hieroglyphs were pictures which represent the word visually (which is only true of some of them)?
 
 

Dantius

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Ammianus Marcellinus, Res Gestae 17.4, in the context of Constantius bringing an Egyptian obelisk to Rome, has a fair bit to say about hieroglyphs; whether any of it is accurate is beyond my knowledge, but it seems unlikely to me. He also includes a Greek translation of the hieroglyphs on an obelisk in the Circus Maximus, citing a certain Hermapion (otherwise unknown). Again, I can't say whether this is a reliable translation.

Here's the relevant part, with the Loeb translation:
Formarum autem innumeras notas, hieroglyphicas appellatas, quas ei undique videmus incisas, initialis sapientiae vetus insignivit auctoritas. 9 Volucrum enim ferarumque, etiam alieni mundi, genera multa sculpentes ad aevi quoque sequentis aetates ut inpetratorum vulgatius perveniret memoria, promissa vel soluta regum vota monstrabant. 10 Non enim ut nunc litterarum numerus praestitutus et facilis exprimit quicquid humana mens concipere potest, ita prisci quoque scriptitarunt Aegyptii, sed singulae litterae singulis nominibus serviebant et verbis; non numquam significabant integros sensus. 11 Cuius rei scientiam his inseram duobus exemplis. per vulturem naturae vocabulum pandunt, quia mares nullos posse inter has alites inveniri rationes memorant physicae, perque speciem apis mella conficientis indicant regem moderatori cum iucunditate aculeos quoque innasci debere his signis ostendentes. et similia plurima.

Now the infinite carvings of characters called hieroglyphics, which we see cut into it on every side, have been made known by an ancient authority of primeval wisdom.* 9. For by engraving many kinds of birds and beasts, even of another world, in order that the memory of their achievements might the more widely reach generations of a subsequent age, they registered the vows of kings, either promised or performed. 10. For not as nowadays, when a fixed and easy series of letters expresses whatever the mind of man may conceive, did the ancient Egyptians also write; but individual characters stood for individual nouns and verbs; and sometimes they meant whole phrases. 11. The principle of this thing for the time it will suffice to illustrate with these two examples: by a vulture they represent the word “nature,” because, as natural history records, no males can be found among these birds; and under the figure of a bee making honey they designate “a king,” showing by this imagery that in a ruler sweetness should be combined with a sting as well; and there are many similar instances.

*This is not how I took that phrase; to me it seems like "have been made famous/remarkable by the ancient authority of primeval wisdom," i.e. the fact that they're so old, and old things are thought to contain extra wisdom/authority, makes them particularly interesting to people.
 

Pacifica

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Ammianus dixit:
Cuius rei scientiam his inseram duobus exemplis. per vulturem naturae vocabulum pandunt, quia mares nullos posse inter has alites inveniri rationes memorant physicae, perque speciem apis mella conficientis indicant regem moderatori cum iucunditate aculeos quoque innasci debere his signis ostendentes. et similia plurima.
There may be a kernel of truth to what he says about the bee: Bee (hieroglyph) - Wikipedia
And even to what he says about the vulture, though it may be a stretch to say that it means "nature" (?) Ancient Egypt: the Mythology
 

Clemens

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There may be a kernel of truth to the bee, but he doesn't understand the general principles of how the system works.
 
 

Dantius

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And even to what he says about the vulture, though it may be a stretch to say that it means "nature" (?) Ancient Egypt: the Mythology
I'm not sure I even understand what Ammianus's logic is — how does the lack of male vultures make the vulture appropriate to mean "nature"?
 

Pacifica

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Because (Mother) Nature is a female deity/entity?
 
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Pacifica

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I mean it seems far-fetched all right, but it's all that comes to mind. Like, Mother Nature is so completely female that it's fitting for her be represented by an (allegedly) all-female species.
 

Pacifica

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Unless it's because Nature has to create vultures from scratch each time since vultures can't reproduce sexually, there being no males. But that may be even more far-fetched.

I wonder where they got the weird idea that there were no male vultures.
 

Avunculus H

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ancient authority of primeval wisdom
I think that is also a case of the trope popular in Antiquity that Egypt and Egyptians were a source of ancient, arcane knowledge. Plato has the story of Atlantis being told by an Egyptian priest to give it that specific aura, and later Egyptian mystery cults like the Isis cult became popular in the Roman Empire.
 
 

Matthaeus

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Could be that it's more than just a trope...
 

Avunculus H

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Could be that it's more than just a trope...
Who knows? Teachings that are older than Greek culture, certainly. Whether these teachings were really wisdom or just superstition hallowed by age I don't know; someone who knows more about ancient Egypt literature maybe can tell.
Just a funny coincidence, but yesterday's Laudator entry also plays into that trope:

Wednesday, April 09, 2025
The Egyptians

Herodotus 2.79 (tr. J. Enoch Powell):
And they follow the customs of their fathers, and receive no new custom.

πατρίοισι δὲ χρεώμενοι νόμοισι ἄλλον οὐδένα ἐπικτῶνται.
 

Clemens

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Has anyone here ever tried to learn to read Ancient Egyptian in whatever written form? Or Coptic?
 
 

Matthaeus

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You mean hieroglyphs? No, but it surely is interesting.
 

Pacifica

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I've never studied any Egyptian in any form, alas.
 

Devenius Dulenius

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Maybe when I retire and have more time for study. I have read the Greek text of the Rosetta Stone, though. Interesting stuff.
 

Devenius Dulenius

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And I've been working on learning Biblical Aramaic and Classical Syriac for a little over a year. The script of the latter (Syriac) is a precursor of Arabic script.
 
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