Former UK minister Bryant calls French a useless language
- Thread starter Akela
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In fact, Tok Pisin has its own Wikipedia: http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/
 Tongue.gif "(1) Tongue out :p")
uzzle:
The Latin Wikipedia desperately needs more users to contribute (it is in 50th largest Wikipedia and largest for any ancient language) and yes, Wikipedia has so many editions in obscure languages.
Apparently, the aim of Latin Wiki is barbarizing the Latin language, for it invites anyone to participate. I guess Anglophones would not be happy if I started writing in the English Wiki; yet I think I know English better than a lot of Usores know Latin.
Tokpisin is an English-lexified creole. A creole is a pidgin that has become a local language and is passed down from parents to children, and which eventually develops a standard form.Akela dixit:IncredibleJaimeB dixit:
So Tokpisin is an English-dialect/derivative (sort of)?...
The original pidgin is a nonce language that arises from the contact of cultures previously unknown to each other. Typically it arises under conditions of trade or out of necessity for palaver, negotiation, etc. Most pidgins and creoles have a vocabulary derived from a European language, which can easily be learned by the non-European parties, but follow grammatical rules that take the grammatical features of the local language(s) into consideration, and also make allowances for phonological alteration to facilitate oral production by members of the host culture. So, in Tokpisin, for example, there is no /ʤ/ phoneme, so this sound is replaced by /s/, as in the name of the language itself: the name Tokpisin derives from the English words "talk" plus "pidgin." The word "pidgin" itself is said to originate in the Chinese pronunciation of the word "business."
Pidgins arise out of necessity, lack subtlety, and generally have low status. When they are transformed into creoles by becoming the regular means of communication of a community, they become standardized and develop a stable grammar and orthography and even a body of literature, and rise in status.
A French Caribbean creole, called "Créole" (Kreyòl in standard Haitian orthography), has become the de facto national language of Haiti. Many Haitians also speak standard French, but others have little or no ability in standard French and communicate almost entirely in Créole. Haitian Créole uses a largely French-based vocabulary (there are a few words from English and Spanish also), but the pronunciation is simplified to eliminate sounds that were difficult for the African slaves who were brought to Haiti to pronounce. So the rounded front vowels of French /œ/ and /y/ are replaced by the unrounded vowels /e/ (or /ye/) and /i/. Many of the grammatical and syntactical features are simplified, so that inflected (suffixed) French verb forms are replaced by a simple verb form followed by particles indicating aspect or tense. The verb forms do not vary for person or number, the subject being indicated only by a preceding noun or pronoun. Other syntactical features, such as plurality are also indicated by postposed particles. Many of the grammatical features are said to be influenced by the Fongbe language of Benin, the area from which many slaves were taken to Haiti.
An Ayiti tout moun yo palé kreyòl. French: En Haïti tout le monde parle Créole. English: "In Haiti, everybody speaks Creole."
From French to Scots to Creole. A+
I wonder if there's a wikipedia in Scots...
I wonder if there's a wikipedia in Scots...
I may sound as if I were patronizing Wikipedia, but I prefer the Latin Forum community, as the Latin Forum community is much more mature, while the Wikipedia community is often infested with trolls who add in half-baked ideas. Akela, please forgive me, as I am a regular contributor to the Latin Forum. The translations in the Latin Forum are in fact far superior to the Latin Wikipedia's, though I use the latter simply as a suggestion, preferring that others would bring in better suggestions. In fact, I disagree with the preferred translation of computer in the Latin Wikipedia as computatrum. Indeed, I prefer ordinatrum as the Latin translation of computer. Many articles in the Latin Wikipedia are unbelievably short and often do give a correct impression of the subject, such as with Toronto that has only one image, which is a map dated from 1894! Toronto definitely changed significantly from that date! Good thing that the Latin Forum community acknowledges inaccuracies on Wikipedia in general. I do not want to create a rift between myself and the community.
Akela, you are being quite hypocritical. You accuse me of patronizing Wikipedia, when if you look closely at the sidebar on the top left, you patronize two other websites. Therefore, if you accept social media websites, then you have to accept me patronizing Wikipedia (which I do not do as much as I patronize Latin Forum). I apologize for that and please accept my apologies.
Akela, you are being quite hypocritical. You accuse me of patronizing Wikipedia, when if you look closely at the sidebar on the top left, you patronize two other websites. Therefore, if you accept social media websites, then you have to accept me patronizing Wikipedia (which I do not do as much as I patronize Latin Forum). I apologize for that and please accept my apologies.
To me, this seems as an attempt from the Scottish community to distance themselves from the UK. It's funny you should mention the Scandinavian languages here, as I consider it to be much in common between Norwegians and Scots in this context.Decimus Canus dixit:
Prior to the Napoleon wars, Sweden and Denmark were both fairly strong military speaking, and Norway was united with Denmark at the time; thus adopting Danish as literal language. Denmark sided with France, and Sweden with Great Britain in the wars, and consequently Denmark lost Norway to Sweden.
After all this, Norwegian language began to distance itself from Danish, although mostly in a symbolic way. I think this represents pretty good what these Scots are trying to do. Even though it might seem a little ridiculous to form a language for Scots, while English has been long indoctrinated there, identification is very important for people. There are in fact two fairly different Norwegian languages in writing. This first, which by far resembles Danish, and is by far the most common one; but also a second one, that distances itself even from the great impact German had on both Danish and Norwegian. It seems as though the latter struggles to find the roots to old norse, and has caused a lot of pain for young pupils to learn.
On a more unrelated note, I would also like to point out (being the Scandinavian that I am) that all the while Danish and Norwegian are nearly identical in writing, a conversation is practically incomprehensible between a Norwegian and a Dane. In fact, in most cases such a conversation would be spoken in english(!). And although a Swede and a Norwegian might have a perfectly good understanding of each other even in oral conversation, Swedish writing is further away from Norwegian and Danish. Calling these "dialects of the same language", would be to take it too far in my opinion.
Scots and English have developed separately for a thousand years: Modern English is based on the Mercian (if I’m not mistaken) dialect of Old English with an admixture of other dialects, while Scots is the descendant of the Northumbrian dialect. It’s quite a decent age.voxlarsi dixit:
There are dialects in most nations where the population is devided to some extent, which are almost incomprehensible to some others. Even though Scottish language has developed seperately from English, there is no denying that English has had a major impact to the Scots. They have been in control of the English for quite some time, with Lords, priests, teachers etc. in powerful and culturally influential positions. Now that time has pretty much past, and a language of their own would be a further step ahead for the desolution of the United Kingdom, no doubt. If, of course, there is a genuine interest among the population to do so.