Ecclesiastical Hymns

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
Side question: Does wait for qualify as a phrasal verb, or is it just a verb that takes a preposition with its object? I'm fuzzy on the definition.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
Side question: Does wait for qualify as a phrasal verb, or is it just a verb that takes a preposition with its object? I'm fuzzy on the definition.
So am I, so... I don't know. I think not everyone agrees on the definition. In fact I hesitated to use the term "phrasal verb" in my post, because I suspected "wait for" wasn't a phrasal verb by the narrowest definitions, but then I thought to hell with it, this is a concise way to denote what I mean and others will understand.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
So am I, so... I don't know. I think not everyone agrees on the definition. In fact I hesitated to use the term "phrasal verb" in my post, because I suspected "wait for" wasn't a phrasal verb by the narrowest definitions, but then I thought to hell with it, this is a concise way to denote what I mean and others will understand.
I discovered while teaching EFL that just being a native speaker of English doesn't mean I can explain the grammar succinctly, and sometimes there were things I wasn't even aware of, like the difference between the future with "going to" and "will."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
I think not everyone agrees on the definition.
I think there are two schools of thought broadly speaking:

1) Those who say that you've got a phrasal verb only when a verb is commonly associated with a small adverb (like up, down, etc.) in non-literal ways;

2) Those who also count as phrasal verbs the habitual collocation of a verb and a preposition.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
Here's my (possibly erroneous) definition: A phrasal verb can't take an object of preposition with the second element (the particle).

Example: look out (beware, pay attention) doesn't take an object of out. A verb with a preposition can: look out (meaning to look from the inside of something toward the outside) can, Look out the window.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
Here's my (possibly erroneous) definition: A phrasal verb can't take an object of preposition with the second element (the particle).

Example: look out (beware, pay attention) doesn't take an object of out. A verb with a preposition can: look out (meaning to look from the inside of something toward the outside) can, Look out the window.
That's basically 1) put another way.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
I wonder if there is a connection between English phrasal verbs and German separable prefix verbs. When I took German I instinctively understood them as phrasal verbs. Did English verbs ever operate the same way?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
In Old English it worked pretty much the same way as in German, with, I believe, the minor difference that there wasn't the convention to write the two parts as one word when they came together at the end of a clause (I think the usage varied somewhat).

I'm very much tempted to believe that there is a connection between these and modern English phrasal verbs. They feel like the same thing following different word-order rules. But I don't really know.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
They feel like the same thing following different word-order rules.
I mean, the verb no longer comes last in subordinate clauses in modern English, and that seems to be the only reason why the e.g. zusammenkommen order doesn't occur in English and it's always "come together".
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
Yet we still have things like "bypass". Hmm.
 

CMatthiasT88

Civis

  • Civis

Location:
America Septentrionalis, Provincia Dakota, Mandan
5. Beata cuius brachiis
Pretium pependit saeculi
Statera facta corporis
Tulitque praedam tartari- Verse 5 "Vexilla Regis Prodeunt"
Thank you, here I'm not sure how to handle Statera facta corporis since "the tree made a balance of the body" doesn't seem to fit well.

O blessed tree from whose branches
Hung the treasure of the age
Made a measure of the body?
It stole the prey of hell? -CMatthiasT88
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
That line is a bit obscure indeed, but it may be something like this:

Blessed [tree] from whose branches
The price of the world (i.e. the price by which the world was redeemed, Jesus) hung,
The balance having been made of his body, (i.e. his body was the price to pay; imagine a merchant weighing gold in a pair of scales)
And took the spoils of hell (a reference to the Harrowing of Hell).
 

CMatthiasT88

Civis

  • Civis

Location:
America Septentrionalis, Provincia Dakota, Mandan
As if a scale hung from the tree wherein one pan was held Jesus, and the other the spoils of hell?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
That hadn't occurred to me but maybe?
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
As if a scale hung from the tree wherein one pan was held Jesus, and the other the spoils of hell?
We do see souls being weighed in scales on some Romanesque churches, I'm thinking especially of Autun cathedral, but there are others. I like these medieval Christian texts because they tend to find religious significance in attendant details of the Crucifixion, such as the tree that the cross was made of somehow participating in the whole thing.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
I like these medieval Christian texts because they tend to find religious significance in attendant details of the Crucifixion, such as the tree that the cross was made of somehow participating in the whole thing.
Do you know the Dream of the Rood?
 

CMatthiasT88

Civis

  • Civis

Location:
America Septentrionalis, Provincia Dakota, Mandan
5. Beata cuius brachiis
Pretium pependit saeculi (gen. objective)
Statera facta corporis (gen. material)
Tulitque praedam tartari (gen. possessive)- Verse 5 "Vexilla Regis Prodeunt"
O blessed tree from whose branches
Hung the ransom for the world
With payment of his body made
He seized the spoil of Hades-me
On further reflection seems that at least theologically, it wouldn't make much sense to weigh the value of Christ against the souls in Hades, since he would be of infinite value as God himself. Several of the English translations I've been seeing do seem to prefer the similar idea of a ransom however. I like this idea, and I would assign that word to pretium. And I wonder if it might be plausible that statera has a transferred sense from "scales">"value">"payment", and possibly that statera facta might take the ablative absolute?
 
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