Cringy

Though many are probably aghast at that thought. But the ancients got by without macrons, so we can too.
 

Laurentius

Civis Illustris

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Location:
Lago Duria
Thank God, I thought this was going to be a translation request.

What I don't understand about the restituta pronunciation is why they pronounce the letter q like that, I thought it was supposed to sound like some k or something.
 
I agree. It depends on which accent you want to use, though. If you don't use the restored, then you don't make them in speech. We don't know exactly when the dialects diverged into proto-Romance languages. In the case of Spanish, it was within 3 or 4 centuries from the fall of Rome, judging from the earliest documents. During that period, people at least started to not make those distinctions in speech, most likely.

I expect that some are more comfortable with the idea of using Italianate and Spanish accents for medieval Latin than for classical Latin. That's perfectly fine. However, I see no reason why one cannot use them for classical. Just as today, in the case of Greek, modern natives of Greece use their modern accent for ancient Greek. (In fact, it's not just modern. Papryi and inscriptional evidence shows that the language was already moving toward that accent as early as the 6th century B.C.) I switched over to the Modern accent for Attic and Koine some years ago. I expect to do the same for Homer when I start him next year.
 
When I was in grad school, I took courses in Old Spanish (c. A.D. 800 to roughly the 16th century). We read works from the 10th, 11th, 14th centuries, using modern Latin American Spanish accents when reading aloud. Nobody minded.
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris

  • Civis Illustris

What I don't understand about the restituta pronunciation is why they pronounce the letter q like that, I thought it was supposed to sound like some k or something.
prōnūntiātiō restitūta est [kʷ]. Marius Vīctōrīnus K 6.34: '[nōn] nihil tamen interest, utra eōrum prior sit, c seu q sīue k. quārum utramque exprīmī faucibus, alteram distentō, alteram prōductō rictū manifestum est.'
utrum multī sint quī rēctē prōnūntient, est alia rēs, sānē.

During that period, people at least started to not make those distinctions in speech, most likely.
ignōsce, sed hoc plērumque falsum est (praeter litteram a). exempla:

ī prōducta > i
fīlum > filo
līs, lītis > lid
uīnum > vino
quīntus > quinto
i breuis > e
nigrum > negro
pilus > pelo
inde > ende

ē prōducta > e
cēra > cera
lēx, lēgis > ley
mēnsa > mesa
e breuis > ie
bene > bien
petra > piedra
septem > siete
uentus > viento

ō prōducta > o
hōra > ora
meliōris > mejor
tōtus > todo
o breuis > ue
bonus > bueno
forum > fuero
rota > rueda
porta > puerta

sānē, distinctiō nōndum est longitūdō uōcālis, sed qualitās uel additiō nouae litterae. sed distinctiō manet. Hispānī numquam idem uōcāle in fīlum et pilus prōnūntiāuērunt.
 
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Iáson

Cívis Illústris

  • Civis Illustris

ut mihi uidētur, sānē, uōs potestis illō modō prōnūntiāre quī placeat. certē modus hodiernus hispanicus melior mihi sonat quam modus hodiernus britannicus quem audīuī in lyceō. multī quōs nōuī nūllam distinctiōnem faciunt longitūdinis et possunt satis bene intellegī cum colloquimur. sed ualdē taedet audīre illōs, quī ob ignorantiam histōriae linguae auctōritātem antīquitātis affectant.
Papryi and inscriptional evidence shows that the language was already moving toward that accent as early as the 6th century B.C.
crēdō īn uērā scientiā linguārum nūllum locum esse ad 'teleologicās' quae uocantur sententiās. et haec sententia est falsissima - immō, est nūllus papyrus ex saeculō sextō ante christum nātum. sāne uērum est prōnūntiātiōnem linguae graecae magnopere similem fuisse hodiernae prōnūntiātiōnī in tertiō saeculō post christum nātum, etsī etiam distinctiō fuit inter υ et ι.

I switched over to the Modern accent for Attic and Koine some years ago. I expect to do the same for Homer when I start him next year.
sī placeat, quidnī? sed nōn poteris numerōs eiius intelligere.
 
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Laurentius

Civis Illustris

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Location:
Lago Duria
prōnūntiātiō restitūta est [kʷ]. Marius Vīctōrīnus K 6.34: '[nōn] nihil tamen interest, utra eōrum prior sit, c seu q sīue k. quārum utramque exprīmī faucibus, alteram distentō, alteram prōductō rictū manifestum est.'
utrum multī sint quī rēctē prōnūntient, est alia rēs, sānē.
Attamen satis similis est sonus phonemati k, nonne? Quae cum ita sint, nullo ualeo modo intellegere cur pronuntiatús restituti fautores q dicere malint, praesertim cum cetera omnia recte pronuntiare nitantur.
When I was in grad school, I took courses in Old Spanish (c. A.D. 800 to roughly the 16th century). We read works from the 10th, 11th, 14th centuries, using modern Latin American Spanish accents when reading aloud. Nobody minded.
Wow you took these courses a long time ago. :grin-huge:
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris

  • Civis Illustris

quem sonum indicās per "q"? suspicor multōs dīcere [kw], nam plūrimīs difficile est distinguere [kʷ] et [kw]. fortasse nōn multum vel nihil distant (cōnfer hoc). exstat quoque phonēma quam philosophī linguārum appellant [q]; sed hoc aliud est, crēdō.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
When I was in grad school, I took courses in Old Spanish (c. A.D. 800 to roughly the 16th century). We read works from the 10th, 11th, 14th centuries, using modern Latin American Spanish accents when reading aloud. Nobody minded.
Interesting. When I took courses in Old French, we most certainly did not use modern French pronunciation.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
quem sonum indicās per "q"? suspicor multōs dīcere [kw], nam plūrimīs difficile est distinguere [kʷ] et [kw]. fortasse nōn multum vel nihil distant (cōnfer hoc). exstat quoque phonēma quam philosophī linguārum appellant [q]; sed hoc aliud est, crēdō.
Interesting. I was just trying out the different pronunciations, and I discovered that in English (my native language), I say something like [kʷw]; that is the whole utterance is rounded, not just the [w]. The linked discussion seems to indicate that this is widespread across languages and that only a language has both [kʷ] and [kw] as phonemes, would attempt to distinguish the two, and that this would be idiosyncratic to the language, much how some American English dialects distinguish writer and rider by the length of the preceding vowel.
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris

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Interesting. I was just trying out the different pronunciations, and I discovered that in English (my native language), I say something like [kʷw]; that is the whole utterance is rounded, not just the [w]. The linked discussion seems to indicate that this is widespread across languages and that only a language has both [kʷ] and [kw] as phonemes, would attempt to distinguish the two, and that this would be idiosyncratic to the language, much how some American English dialects distinguish writer and rider by the length of the preceding vowel.
uērisimiliter autem potius [kʰʷw] dīcis. fortasse hocc est quod Laurentius significat per 'q'.

quid, sī conāris lentissimē loquī? fortasse hāc in cāsū Anglicī magis distinguunt illās litterās (ut fortasse in animō /kw/ habent, etsī linguā plērumque kʷ).
 
ut mihi uidētur, sānē, uōs potestis illō modō prōnūntiāre quī placeat. certē modus hodiernus hispanicus melior mihi sonat quam modus hodiernus britannicus quem audīuī in lyceō. multī quōs nōuī nūllam distinctiōnem faciunt longitūdinis et possunt satis bene intellegī cum colloquimur. sed ualdē taedet audīre illōs, quī ob ignorantiam histōriae linguae auctōritātem antīquitātis affectant.

crēdō īn uērā scientiā linguārum nūllum locum esse ad 'teleologicās' quae uocantur sententiās. et haec sententia est falsissima - immō, est nūllus papyrus ex saeculō sextō ante christum nātum. sāne uērum est prōnūntiātiōnem linguae graecae magnopere similem fuisse hodiernae prōnūntiātiōnī in tertiō saeculō post christum nātum, etsī etiam distinctiō fuit inter υ et ι.


sī placeat, quidnī? sed nōn poteris numerōs eiius intelligere.
First, congrats on your Latin composition fluency. I'm not that good at it yet, but hope to be, in time.

Second, re the evidence for changes in Ancient Greek pronunciation, I should not have lumped papyri and inscriptions together re the 6th century B.C. You're correct that we don't yet have any Greek papyri going that far back. Apparently there are some inscriptions starting with that period that show spelling changes (or misspellings) that would correspond to the sound changes. The papyri evidence is somewhat later. Nonetheless, it demonstrates that the so-called Modern Greek pronunciation is quite ancient.

As I've said before, any spoken Ancient Greek and Latin, regardless of pronunciation system, is better than none. Anything that gets us away from the "dead language" mindset in learning the languages is good, at least potentially.

It's interesting about learning Old French. I had plans to do so also in my grad studies. However, burnout got to me and I dropped out about halfway through the program so didn't get to take those courses.
 
I hope to get to Old French one day after retirement. What sources did you use for reconstructing the pronunciation? I did secure an older textbook a while back, but haven't used it yet.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
I hope to get to Old French one day after retirement. What sources did you use for reconstructing the pronunciation? I did secure an older textbook a while back, but haven't used it yet.
I didn't reconstruct the pronunciation myself. It differed, depending on time and place, as there was no standard. The pronunciation in the Chanson de Roland, for example, is quite, early not the same as in Chrétien de Troyes or Villehardouin, which is again different with the later Roman de la rose or Charles d'Orléans.
 
So did your professor guide you (and your fellow students)? Would any of the material be available online now?
 
I've read the Chanson in a modern French version. I vaguely recall doing a paper comparing and contrasting it with the Spanish national epic, El Cantar del Mio Cid, which dates to roughly the same period of composition. It was for a Spanish course, so I wrote it in Spanish. (This was, I think, as an undergrad, so I read the Cid in a modern Spanish version at the time. Later, I read it in the original Old Spanish after the grad courses in the OS language.)
 

kizolk

Civis Illustris

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Location:
Bourgogne, France
Speaking of Old French pronunciation(s), there's never a bad occasion to repost that video:

Incidentally, in my Old French course, we used modern French pronunciation. Well, it depends on what you mean exactly by that; we used modern French phonemes, but we would for instance pronounce consonants that are mute in modern French. I don't think we spent a long time on pronunciation, in any case, as it was mostly a literature class, I'd say.
 
Well, our Spanish class I referred to was a literature course also, but we took turns reading aloud some of the lines from the readings. Thus, pronunciation did figure in it. Of course, we also did readings outside of class for the course on our own.

ncidentally, in my Old French course, we used modern French pronunciation. Well, it depends on what you mean exactly by that; we used modern French phonemes, but we would for instance pronounce consonants that are mute in modern French. I don't think we spent a long time on pronunciation, in any case, as it was mostly a literature class, I'd say.
Such as the mute -e at the end of words. which most modern dialects do not pronounce, except in singing. I can see how reading literature aloud could call for that.
 

Clemens

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

Location:
Maine, United States.
Such as the mute -e at the end of words. which most modern dialects do not pronounce, except in singing. I can see how reading literature aloud could call for that.
Of course, there’s more to it than that. The most salient things to my mind are the diphthongs and tripthongs, the more complicated vowel system, the nasalisation of all vowels which are followed by a nasal consonant, the retention of more Latin verb endings (early on), affricates which correspond to modern French sibilants, and the different R.
 
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