Convenire and Accusative

[Hortatus]

written Arabic discourse tends to have a meandering, exuberant quality compared with the European tradition of hierarchical relations between clauses and ideas.

Well that sounds wonderful and worth learning Arabic for all on its own.

I see that Arabic is on the semantic language tree, but I can't think of an explanation as to why the tree is called that, is there something that is especially 'meaningful' in the construction of these languages?

 

[Pacifica]

Latin does seem to have long sentences (though you said clauses, I thought sentences!).

An independent clause pretty much means a sentence, but it can also be connected to another by a coordinating conjunction like "and" and then it becomes debatable whether they're one or two (or more) sentences. Arabic uses its equivalent of "and" everywhere, so you can have a long passage of "he did this and I did that and we did that and this happened and people came and we talked and we did this and we did that then they left". Is that one sentence or more? I don't know, but in any case it's a succession of independent clauses.

Does Arabic have noticeably shorter sentences than English?

I'm not entirely sure, but probably not noticeably shorter than present-day English.

 

[Pacifica]

I see that Arabic is on the semantic language tree, but I can't think of an explanation as to why the tree is called that, is there something that is especially 'meaningful' in the construction of these languages?

Do you mean "Semitic"?

 

[Pacifica]

Arabic uses its equivalent of "and" everywhere, so you can have a long passage of "he did this and I did that and we did that and this happened and people came and we talked and we did this and we did that then they left".

Latin, by contrast, would tend to say something more like:

When he had done this and I had done that and we had done that, with this having happened, people came and, talking and doing this, we did that; then they left.

 

[Hortatus]

Do you mean "Semitic"?

Yes indeed - I do have that tendency to see a new word and map it onto something familiar So the languages and the people have a name related to that of Noah's son, that makes sense.

 

[Hortatus]

he did this and I did that and we did that and this happened and people came and we talked and we did this and we did that then they left

 

[Hortatus]

Latin, by countrast, would tend to say something more like:

When he had done this and I had done that and we had done that, with this having happened, people came and, talking and doing this, we did that; then they left.

except that Latin would move words widely apart from each other (from the perspective of English) for emphasis! Are the clauses in Arabic subject-verb-object in general and adjectives and adverbs staying next to their nouns and verbs?

 

[Pacifica]

Are the clauses in Arabic subject-verb-object in general and adjectives and adverbs staying next to their nouns and verbs?

The default word order in classical Arabic is verb-subject-object (but it can vary a little, and colloquial varieties tend more toward subject-verb-object).

Adjectives are always close to their nouns, usually directly following (never preceding, as far as I know) them, unless one or more genitives intervene ("the black bag" is literally "the-bag the-black", and "Ahmad's black bag" is literally "bag of-Ahmad the-black").

Adverbs tend to come at the end of clauses.

 

[Dumnorix]

Thank you for this comment Dumnorix, I loved the idea the warriors hiding themselves in the forest so much that I've started reading an English translation of the invasion of Britain - it's great, although I think I was hoping that the Romans had to hide in the forest! So far there have been at least three hidings in woods and the Roman fleet has been destroyed by the tide and storms on the first two landings, how did they ever manage to conquer anywhere? I've read the first page or so in Latin and it seems doable, so I've ordered a hard copy.

You will love the account of the wild battle with the Nervii in Book II! There's a hiding in the woods involved there. And a hiding in the woods with tragic consequences in Book V. There are just so many vivid, dramatic episodes throughout. I hope you enjoy it!

 

[Gregorius Textor]

Thanks for posting this example, Hortatus. I'm pretty sure I would have gotten that wrong, too. I think I also would have gotten your example wrong, Dumnorix, so thanks as well to you! I think my brain really latches onto viewing these locations as set locations (which they are, but I guess that is not the determining factor in these cases), and I will obviously just need to change my mindset in this regard.

Don't let that discourage you. With time and practice, you will (very gradually, if like me) begin thinking like a Roman!
By the way, welcome to the Forum!

 

[Gregorius Textor]

I guess the pronunciation of Arabic is also harder than that of Latin to native speakers of Indo-European languages.

Ah---but on the other hand, we do have live native speakers of Arabic to listen to! Perhaps if we had tape recordings of ancient Romans, we would find that they made sounds as difficult for us as Arabic!

 

[Pacifica]

Ah---but on the other hand, we do have live native speakers of Arabic to listen to! Perhaps if we had tape recordings of ancient Romans, we would find that they made sounds as difficult for us as Arabic!

Probably not, at least not as many. The reconstructed pronunciation is partly (very educated) guesswork, and maybe we got some details wrong, but it's unlikely that Latin would turn out to be full of unexpected, Arabic-grade alien sounds.

 

[Pacifica]

One thing that's likely, though, is that the accent (for lack of a better word; I mean that indescribable something that makes up the feel of a spoken language beyond the pronunciation of individual sounds and the bare prosody) would be something none of us had quite imagined.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

I was just kidding, Pacifica! But, since we don't have those recordings, we'll never know for sure, will we?

---Ah yes, that indescribable something whereby one can tell that someone else is speaking Italian, German, Chinese, etc., without at all knowing the language---only beware of the ape in The Murders in the Rue Morgue.

 

[Angie]

Don't let that discourage you. With time and practice, you will (very gradually, if like me) begin thinking like a Roman!
By the way, welcome to the Forum!

Thank you! Now I need to figure out how to memorize/remember better.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

the accent (for lack of a better word; I mean that indescribable something that makes up the feel of a spoken language

Poe calls it the intonation.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

Thank you! Now I need to figure out how to memorize/remember better.

I find spaced repetition is helpful, using Anki or a similar program.

 

[Angie]

I find spaced repetition is helpful, using Anki or a similar program.

Thank you for this recommendation. I checked it out and it looks like it will be really helpful!