Convenire and Accusative

[Angie]

Quick question...

I translated this sentence:

The leaders of the tribe were assembling in the mountains.
As: Duces gentis in montibus conveniebant.

My answer book has: Duces gentis in montes conveniebant.

Is the accusative used after 'in' here because assembling is movement? I guess I was picturing some stationary type meeting, but if I take assembling to be literal (versus a meeting, as I was picturing it in my mind), then I get that.

Sorry if this is just super obvious and basic, but I just want to make sure. Thank you!

 

[Pacifica]

The English phrase "were assembling in the mountains" suggests a location rather than a destination, but in Latin the meeting place tends to be seen as a destination, the literal meaning being that they came (veniebant) to that place together/simultaneously (con-) (so as to meet).

 

[Pacifica]

I wouldn't say that your translation with the ablative is necessarily wrong: you can picture the leaders being in the mountains already and then assembling there. But that may just be a little less likely.

 

[Angie]

Okay, I get what you're saying. I'm sure I will inevitably get this wrong with other verbs, but at least I'll have some clarity when I see it in the answer book! Thank you!!

 

[Hortatus]

Collins (English) dictionary gives two meanings for 'assemble'. Firstly to come together, and secondly to fit or join together.

The first meaning seems to map well onto convenio, and I wonder if any of the many verbs formed from venio are going to suggest motion when choosing the case after a preposition.

The second meaning doesn't suggest motion as much (if at all?) and the etymology of 'assemble' is suggested to come from ad + simul (via old French?). There may be a Latin verb that better expresses this, but that is beyond me to know maybe se coiungere?

I like that Latin seems to have an extra way to express motion/lack of motion - whereas in English a verb change or some extra words would be needed. 'The leaders of the tribe were assembling in the mountains but as they were already in the mountains they hardly had to travel at all'

 

[Pacifica]

to fit or join together

That meaning would often be transitive, as in to assemble (the elements of) a piece of funiture. If elements of a whole are the object, I imagine coniungere would be a good verb choice. If the whole is the object, then construere could work.

Se coniungere would be fine for translating an intransitive or reflexive meaning, "the pieces assemble (themselves)". Note that se coniungere can also be said of people coming together/joining one another. In my experience it's often said in military contexts of joining forces, e.g. illorum exercitus se cum nostro coniunxit = "their army joined (itself with) ours."

 

[Angie]

That's an interesting way to look at it. It didn't even cross my mind to pick up an English dictionary!

Haha, that was kind of the picture in my mind of the meeting in the mountains, just a set location, like an office. Apparently I need to abandon my contemporary mindset a bit.

I do really like the amount of information in one Latin word. There are so many less words than the equivalent English sentence. I was recently reading about information density per syllable by language, and how speakers of different languages basically convey the information in the same amount of time, but make up for it with speed for less dense languages. I would imagine Latin is fairly dense?? I believe I read Mandarin is the most dense, but English was fairly dense as well.

 

[Hortatus]

And an English grammar book is a must for me, I don't even understand my own language!

Tacitus has a reputation for using few words to say a lot, though it will likely be a while before we can read him... wiki says:

'His Latin style is highly praised. His style, although it has a grandeur and eloquence (thanks to Tacitus's education in rhetoric),
is extremely concise, even epigrammatic—the sentences are rarely flowing or beautiful, but their point is always
clear. The style has been both derided as "harsh, unpleasant, and thorny" and praised as "grave, concise, and pithily eloquent".

 

[Angie]

Right? I had this conversation with Godmy in another post. Basically in learning Latin I am reminded of how little I either absorbed or was taught in English!

Interesting bit about Tacitus. Hopefully some day if we stick with it we can pick these things up, and the meaning will be clear to us!

 

[Clemens]

I do really like the amount of information in one Latin word. There are so many less words than the equivalent English sentence. I was recently reading about information density per syllable by language, and how speakers of different languages basically convey the information in the same amount of time, but make up for it with speed for less dense languages. I would imagine Latin is fairly dense?? I believe I read Mandarin is the most dense, but English was fairly dense as well.

I believe it's the opposite. Chinese words contain very little information compared to a language like Latin, Russian, or (Classical) Arabic.

 

[Hortatus]

I found this today in the Cambridge Latin Course (after struggling past the slaughter of a few unfortunate people)

servi in ordines longos se instruxerunt

so there is motion here too.

 

[Dantius]

I do really like the amount of information in one Latin word. There are so many less words than the equivalent English sentence. I was recently reading about information density per syllable by language, and how speakers of different languages basically convey the information in the same amount of time, but make up for it with speed for less dense languages. I would imagine Latin is fairly dense??

On the other hand, English has a much greater capacity for abstract thought and condensing things into expressions with abstract nouns, so often fairly pithy English phrases will have to be rendered with longer Latin phrases to be idiomatic. And the fact that Latin nouns cannot generally be modified by prepositional phrases (e.g. you can't translate "The man walked away from the mountain near the river," where "near the river" modifies "mountain" rather than "walked," directly; you'd need to do like mons prope flumen situs or mons qui prope flumen erat) also adds some difficulty when it comes to translating some dense English thoughts.

 

[Angie]

I believe it's the opposite. Chinese words contain very little information compared to a language like Latin, Russian, or (Classical) Arabic.

That is totally possible. This study didn't compare ALL languages, and I don't believe it included Russian or Arabic (definitely not Latin). I really just found it because my daughter (who takes Spanish) and I were talking about how fast Spanish speakers sound. I wondered if there was anything to it, so I just stumbled on this.

 

[Angie]

I found this today in the Cambridge Latin Course (after struggling past the slaughter of a few unfortunate people)

servi in ordines longos se instruxerunt

so there is motion here too.

Thank you for sharing. I was going to ask for other examples of this to see where else it would be applicable that may not seem obvious to me. I appreciate it!

 

[Pacifica]

Tip: among other things, when the meaning of "in" is basically "so as to form" (e.g. they arrayed themselves in long ranks = they arrayed themselves so as to form long ranks; we sat in a circle = we sat so as to form a circle), the Latin counterpart typically takes the accusative (e.g. in ordines longos se instruxerunt; in orbem sedebamus). That's because the ranks or circle (or other shape) is a purpose or result, and therefore a figurative end of motion.

 

[Angie]

On the other hand, English has a much greater capacity for abstract thought and condensing things into expressions with abstract nouns, so often fairly pithy English phrases will have to be rendered with longer Latin phrases to be idiomatic. And the fact that Latin nouns cannot generally be modified by prepositional phrases (e.g. you can't translate "The man walked away from the mountain near the river," where "near the river" modifies "mountain" rather than "walked," directly; you'd need to do like mons prope flumen situs or mons qui prope flumen erat) also adds some difficulty when it comes to translating some dense English thoughts.

Interesting. I am definitely not anywhere near translating more abstract concepts yet, so everything I do is concrete. I wouldn't have a clue, but was it common in ancient languages to have less of this ability in communication? Did that evolve in languages over time? Or is Latin unique in that sense?

That is an interesting example with the river sentence. Henle only gives me straightforward stuff. So far I just always think, "Wow, this is twice as long in English!"

 

[Pacifica]

was it common in ancient languages to have less of this ability in communication?

I believe ancient Greek (a more ancient language than Latin) was better at it than Latin. I don't know Greek well enough to tell you just how it compares to modern languages, though.

There must be various degrees of capacity for abstract thought among modern languages as well. I don't know all modern languages, obviously, but I would guess English ranks pretty high.

English may seem all too familiar and uninteresting to you, but never sell it short. Generally speaking, it has an amazing flexibility to it.

 

[Clemens]

English seems to share with Chinese a certain polyvalence that can be lacking in other languages I'm familiar with.

 

[Angie]

There must be various degrees of capacity for abstract thought among modern languages as well. I don't know all modern languages, obviously, but I would guess English ranks pretty high.

English may seem all too familiar and uninteresting to you, but never sell it short. Generally speaking, it has an amazing flexibility to it.

Totally. I'm not even remotely familiar enough with language (modern or ancient) to evaluate any of these subjects!

Yeah, I guess what we possess or know often seems to fall short of what we don't have, or are curious about. As an American, I always think English sounds so much more lovely with a British accent. I certainly appreciate all of our English poetry and literature, but always wish I could read in at least one other language without translation. I'm amazed by how many languages some of you must speak. I only have to live to like 100 to make up for my lack of effort earlier in life.

 

[Pacifica]

I'm amazed by how many languages some of you must speak.

I'm proficient in only three languages. I've studied or dabbled in more to various extents but that's it. I suspect many other members are in a similar situation. Don't be overly impressed if we mention random things about many languages. That doesn't mean we have good command of all of them, lol.