119 is eius, 300 should be eorum. I haven't had a chance to look at the next sentence yet.
Bastard hand with abbreviations manuscript from Switzerland.
- Thread starter Lucifer
- Start date
Just taking a quick look:
Unum ?cum ?philosophia intellectus humanus naturaliter inclinatur ad contemplandum corpora tam nobilia scilicet super celestia. I think 413 is an et which has been crossed out.
Unum ?cum ?philosophia intellectus humanus naturaliter inclinatur ad contemplandum corpora tam nobilia scilicet super celestia. I think 413 is an et which has been crossed out.
So far with the third sentence
Et ? ? quod insignum huius natura vultus hominum erexit sursum usque astrum et non ? animalium quia non habent intellectum.
Et ? ? quod insignum huius natura vultus hominum erexit sursum usque astrum et non ? animalium quia non habent intellectum.
This is my best guess:
Et immo diversum quod insignum huius natura vultus hominum erexit sursum usque astrum et non brutorum animalium quia non habent intellectum.
Et immo diversum quod insignum huius natura vultus hominum erexit sursum usque astrum et non brutorum animalium quia non habent intellectum.
I was feeling more confidant with what I thought the words could be, perhaps not.
My literal translation:
One with philosophy intellect human nature inclination to contemplate bodily so familiar evident above celestial. And rather differing in significance this nature appears human raise upwards to the stars and not fortunate animate because not having intellect.
I’m still not up to speed on learning Latin, I’ll save the translation until later and continue to focus on deciphering the abbreviations for now.
The next sentence starts at word 435. I’m unsure about several words including 435, 436, and 437. 466 I thought to be corum: to move rapidly to and fro; shake, or possibly coruscus: lighting, but now looking at it it could be eorum: to go. 469 looks like tibus, but shin bone is out of place, it could also mean tube. That word is followed by something about joined oppositely to look at planets so a tube could be describing an optical device, still quesswork. The last part of the sentence I find interesting as it is clearly written eclipsis solis et lune.
Eo potestas eicio uitilitas ex illo quia ipse considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbitu caelestis et ipse at stellarum figuarid et erraticarum magnitutinibus figuis at motibus et de multus proprietatibus et effectibus motus corum consequens et tibus sicut sunt conjunctions oppositiones aspectus planetarium at aliarum ste et ilarum fiquarum eclipsis solis et lune directions partitiones retrograde aeones planetarium considerat.
Proceed power outcast utility from that because itself considers of multitude spiral and orbit the sky and itself whereas stellar form and wandering extent form whereas moving and of great property and effect movement shake consequent and tube like is joined oppositely to look at planets whereas different path and place shape eclipse sun and moon alignment distribution retrograde eternity planet consider.
My literal translation:
One with philosophy intellect human nature inclination to contemplate bodily so familiar evident above celestial. And rather differing in significance this nature appears human raise upwards to the stars and not fortunate animate because not having intellect.
I’m still not up to speed on learning Latin, I’ll save the translation until later and continue to focus on deciphering the abbreviations for now.
The next sentence starts at word 435. I’m unsure about several words including 435, 436, and 437. 466 I thought to be corum: to move rapidly to and fro; shake, or possibly coruscus: lighting, but now looking at it it could be eorum: to go. 469 looks like tibus, but shin bone is out of place, it could also mean tube. That word is followed by something about joined oppositely to look at planets so a tube could be describing an optical device, still quesswork. The last part of the sentence I find interesting as it is clearly written eclipsis solis et lune.
Eo potestas eicio uitilitas ex illo quia ipse considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbitu caelestis et ipse at stellarum figuarid et erraticarum magnitutinibus figuis at motibus et de multus proprietatibus et effectibus motus corum consequens et tibus sicut sunt conjunctions oppositiones aspectus planetarium at aliarum ste et ilarum fiquarum eclipsis solis et lune directions partitiones retrograde aeones planetarium considerat.
Proceed power outcast utility from that because itself considers of multitude spiral and orbit the sky and itself whereas stellar form and wandering extent form whereas moving and of great property and effect movement shake consequent and tube like is joined oppositely to look at planets whereas different path and place shape eclipse sun and moon alignment distribution retrograde eternity planet consider.
Something like:
Together with philosophy, human intellect is naturally inclined to observing such noble bodies namely those above the heavenly.
I have probably garbled some of this.
an indeed it is different because as a sign of this nature the face of men has risen above to the stars and not (the face) of brute animals because they do not have intellect.
I haven’t worked on this much over the summer. I’m picking it up again, trying to continue learning Latin and decipher this text.
I have looked over the next sentence again and this is what I have:
Quo potestas eius uitilitas ex illo quia ipse considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbitu caelestis et ipse at stellarum figuarid et erraticarum magnitudinibus figuis at motibus et de multus proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consequens et tibus sicut sunt conjunctiones oppositiones aspectus planetarium at aliarum ste et ilarum fiquarum eclipsis solis et lune directions partitiones retrograda aeones planetarium considerat.
Literal Translation:
At which control its utility from that because itself considers of multitude spiral and orbit the sky and itself whereas stellar form and wandering extent form whereas moving and of great property and effect movement goes consequent and tube like is joined oppositely to look at planets whereas alternate path and place shape eclipse sun and moon alignment distribution retrograde eternity planet consider.
My guess at the meaning:
(of astronomy)
In order to use it, one must consider the extent of a multitude of orbits of stellar bodies whereas the consequence of movement of great property and effect is joined in opposition (between) planets whereas alternate path and place of sun and moon form alignment, eclipse, distribution, and retrograde for eternity.
I’m just guessing here, so probably has a different meaning. I find it interesting that known works that have been translated, sometimes more than once, can still be scrutinized and re-interpreted. As I read on a recent post in this forum.
As I proceed to work through Wheelock’s Latin and the accompanying workbook I’m becoming aware of the fact that the tense of words in a sentence need to remain consistent. Furthermore the tidbits of info I glean from reading posts adds to my knowledgebase. As this sentence is now, would it be indefinite present tense? The last bit gnomic perfect?
I really struggled with the first word, particularly the first letter. A Two letter word ending in o. I though it was Eo, to go. But I see there is only one form of to go spelled like that, first person I go. Now I’m thinking it is a Q, Quo, that seems to fit.
I have looked over the next sentence again and this is what I have:
Quo potestas eius uitilitas ex illo quia ipse considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbitu caelestis et ipse at stellarum figuarid et erraticarum magnitudinibus figuis at motibus et de multus proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consequens et tibus sicut sunt conjunctiones oppositiones aspectus planetarium at aliarum ste et ilarum fiquarum eclipsis solis et lune directions partitiones retrograda aeones planetarium considerat.
Literal Translation:
At which control its utility from that because itself considers of multitude spiral and orbit the sky and itself whereas stellar form and wandering extent form whereas moving and of great property and effect movement goes consequent and tube like is joined oppositely to look at planets whereas alternate path and place shape eclipse sun and moon alignment distribution retrograde eternity planet consider.
My guess at the meaning:
(of astronomy)
In order to use it, one must consider the extent of a multitude of orbits of stellar bodies whereas the consequence of movement of great property and effect is joined in opposition (between) planets whereas alternate path and place of sun and moon form alignment, eclipse, distribution, and retrograde for eternity.
I’m just guessing here, so probably has a different meaning. I find it interesting that known works that have been translated, sometimes more than once, can still be scrutinized and re-interpreted. As I read on a recent post in this forum.
As I proceed to work through Wheelock’s Latin and the accompanying workbook I’m becoming aware of the fact that the tense of words in a sentence need to remain consistent. Furthermore the tidbits of info I glean from reading posts adds to my knowledgebase. As this sentence is now, would it be indefinite present tense? The last bit gnomic perfect?
I really struggled with the first word, particularly the first letter. A Two letter word ending in o. I though it was Eo, to go. But I see there is only one form of to go spelled like that, first person I go. Now I’m thinking it is a Q, Quo, that seems to fit.
Attachments
I should have some time in the next week or so to take a look...
I appreciate any help with this. I have been studying the next sentence, trying to be a bit more methodical. I have focused on the vowels considering the tense that fits the sentence to determine the correct translation of the abbreviation. I will try to define each word as it’s place in the sentence. That’s hard to do as I am still starting to learn Latin. I did read a recent post on this forum about circling the sun that had a link to an older post on the same subject. There was a link to a website- europeana. I found a remarkably similar text on that site titled St. Gallen, Stiftsbibliothek, Cod. Sang. 827 : Late Medieval Composite Manuscript of Computistic and Astronomical Content dated around 1425. Here is their credit statement:
St. Gallen, Stiftsbibliothek, Cod. Sang. 827 : Late Medieval Composite Manuscript of Computistic and Astronomical Content - Stiftsbibliothek, Czech Republic - CC BY-NC.
www.europeana.eu
Attached is a link to the book that is similar to my book.
I have been looking at this text to try to find similarities with my text. I do, or did have relatives in St. Gallen, so I find this interesting.
St. Gallen, Stiftsbibliothek, Cod. Sang. 827 : Late Medieval Composite Manuscript of Computistic and Astronomical Content - Stiftsbibliothek, Czech Republic - CC BY-NC.
St. Gallen, Stiftsbibliothek, Cod. Sang. 827 : Late Medieval Composite Manuscript of Computistic and Astronomical Content
This composite volume, written between 1425 and 1425 in the Lake Constance regions, though not at the Abbey of St. Gall, contains Latin versions of a great many computistic/astronomical/cosmographical treatises, including the widely disseminated work De sphaera mundi by John of Sacrobosco and...
Attached is a link to the book that is similar to my book.
I have been looking at this text to try to find similarities with my text. I do, or did have relatives in St. Gallen, so I find this interesting.
This is what I have got so far. It can't be right because it doesn't quite make sense.
Quo patet eius utilitas
ex illo quod ipsam considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbium celestium
et ipsorum ac stellarum fixarum et erraticarum magnitudinibus figuris
ac motibus et de multis proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consquen-
tibus sicut sunt coniunctiones opposiciones aspectarum planetarum ac aliarum ste-
llarum fixarum eclipsis solis et lune direcciones stationes retrograda-
ciones planetarum considerant
Quo patet eius utilitas
ex illo quod ipsam considerat de multitudine sperarum et orbium celestium
et ipsorum ac stellarum fixarum et erraticarum magnitudinibus figuris
ac motibus et de multis proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consquen-
tibus sicut sunt coniunctiones opposiciones aspectarum planetarum ac aliarum ste-
llarum fixarum eclipsis solis et lune direcciones stationes retrograda-
ciones planetarum considerant
Last edited:
With help from a colleague I have made a couple of changes. I have left the spellings uncorrected. It doesn't quite make sense though.
Thank you. I am working through Wheelock’s Latin 3rd edition the problems at the end of each chapter and the additional problems at the end of the book in addition to the workbook to accompany Wheelock’s 6th edition. Also working through various on-line resources including a Beginning Latin course by Mark Damen of Utah state U. I am in chapter 2 currently.
Trying to make sense of what the meaning is: I started to break it into bite sized chunks.
The nouns that end in -arum are in the case genitive plural. A noun used to modify another.
Ipse ac Nominative plural itself as / magnitudinibus figuris is a large form / stellarum fixarum et erraticarum fixed and roving stars / Itself as a large form of fixed and roving stars
Eclipsis solis et lune eclipse(of) sun and moon / aspectarum planetarum et aliarum stellarum fixarum – aspect(of) planets and alternate fixed stars / eclipse of sun and moon looks like planets alternate(opposite) fixed stars.
I tried to identify most of the words to see how they relate to one another. I mainly looked at the word endings to determine the grammatical terms. I barely know what any of this means as I am just starting to learn Latin.
Quo patet(3rd p. sgl. indicative present) eius utilitas(accusative pl.) ex illo quod ipsam(accusative sgl.)
considerat(present indicative active 3rd p. sgl.) de multitudine(nominative pl.) sperarum(genitive pl.) et
orbium(genitive pl.) celestium(genitive pl.) et ipsorum(genitive pl.) ac stellarum(genitive pl.)
fixarum(genitive pl.) et erraticarum(genitive pl.) magnitudinibus(accusative pl.) figuris(ablative pl.)
ac motibus et de multis(ablative pl.) proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consequentibus
sicut sunt coniunctiones opposiciones aspectarum(genitive pl.) planetarum(genitive pl.) ac
aliarum(genitive pl.) stellarum(genitive pl.) fixarum(genitive pl.) eclipsis(ablative) solis(nominative) et
lune(nominative) dirrecciones(accusative) stationes
retrogradaciones planetarum(genitive pl.) considerat.(present indicative active 3rd p. sgl.)
Trying to make sense of what the meaning is: I started to break it into bite sized chunks.
The nouns that end in -arum are in the case genitive plural. A noun used to modify another.
Ipse ac Nominative plural itself as / magnitudinibus figuris is a large form / stellarum fixarum et erraticarum fixed and roving stars / Itself as a large form of fixed and roving stars
Eclipsis solis et lune eclipse(of) sun and moon / aspectarum planetarum et aliarum stellarum fixarum – aspect(of) planets and alternate fixed stars / eclipse of sun and moon looks like planets alternate(opposite) fixed stars.
I tried to identify most of the words to see how they relate to one another. I mainly looked at the word endings to determine the grammatical terms. I barely know what any of this means as I am just starting to learn Latin.
Quo patet(3rd p. sgl. indicative present) eius utilitas(accusative pl.) ex illo quod ipsam(accusative sgl.)
considerat(present indicative active 3rd p. sgl.) de multitudine(nominative pl.) sperarum(genitive pl.) et
orbium(genitive pl.) celestium(genitive pl.) et ipsorum(genitive pl.) ac stellarum(genitive pl.)
fixarum(genitive pl.) et erraticarum(genitive pl.) magnitudinibus(accusative pl.) figuris(ablative pl.)
ac motibus et de multis(ablative pl.) proprietatibus et effectibus motus eorum consequentibus
sicut sunt coniunctiones opposiciones aspectarum(genitive pl.) planetarum(genitive pl.) ac
aliarum(genitive pl.) stellarum(genitive pl.) fixarum(genitive pl.) eclipsis(ablative) solis(nominative) et
lune(nominative) dirrecciones(accusative) stationes
retrogradaciones planetarum(genitive pl.) considerat.(present indicative active 3rd p. sgl.)
magnitudinibus is ablative or dative pl to go with figuris
solis and lune are genitive singular
dirrecciones could also be nominative
the last word is considerant
solis and lune are genitive singular
dirrecciones could also be nominative
the last word is considerant
Wow! 7k views! I guess this may be interesting to a few. I have created a profile on the europeana website. On that site I have found only 3 similar books so far. Two from Fribourgh and One from St. Gallen same region this is from. I hope to eventually share my book there.
On to the next sentence page 2 words 492 to 564. One of the lessons in Wheelock’s Latin has a matrix that includes the Word, Form, Dependence, and Reason. I’ll use that here to help me understand and learn.
I’m sure I got some of the words wrong such as calditas aere frigcon ice. Unsure about jurisa sparsa, and estas hiems etor uult.
This is what I have so far:
On to the next sentence page 2 words 492 to 564. One of the lessons in Wheelock’s Latin has a matrix that includes the Word, Form, Dependence, and Reason. I’ll use that here to help me understand and learn.
I’m sure I got some of the words wrong such as calditas aere frigcon ice. Unsure about jurisa sparsa, and estas hiems etor uult.
This is what I have so far:
| English | Latin | Form | Dependence | Reason |
| Knowledge | Scientia | nominative singular | fit | subject |
| of | de | |||
| much | multis | genative | ||
| effect | effectibus | dative/ablative pl. | ||
| in | ||||
| this | iste | |||
| below | inferioribus | dat/abl pl. | ||
| apparent | apperentibus | dat/abl pl. | ||
| and | et | |||
| to | per | |||
| recite | dictos | 2nd per. Sgl. | ||
| motion | motus | |||
| but | at | |||
| properties | proprietates | |||
| not observed | connotandibus | dat/abl pl. | ||
| like | sicut | |||
| is | sunt | |||
| hot | caliditas | acc pl. | aere | |
| air | aere | |||
| cold | frigcon | |||
| ice | ||||
| from what | unde | |||
| guidance | regimen | |||
| motion | motus | |||
| sun | solis | |||
| in | ||||
| following | secundum | |||
| zodiac | zodiaco | |||
| cause | causant | |||
| and | et | |||
| law | jurisa | |||
| scatter | sparsa | |||
| course | anni | |||
| law measure | jurismode | |||
| arrangement | disposita | abl. Sgl. | ||
| quo | ||||
| towards | ad | |||
| qualities | qualitates | dative pl. | zodiaco | |
| first | primas | acc pl. | qualitates | |
| how | ut | |||
| beyond | estas | acc pl. | hiems | |
| storms | hiems | etor | ||
| advance | etor | |||
| wish | uult | |||
| philosophy | philosophus | |||
| in | ||||
| degradation | degradatione | |||
| moon | dioneos | |||
| that | quod | |||
| property | rem | |||
| movement | motis | abl pl. | ||
| sun | solis | |||
| in | ||||
| oblique | oblique | |||
| curve | circulo | |||
| is | est | |||
| towards | erga | |||
| general | generalia | ablative sgl. | eorum | |
| rhythm | eorum | genative pl. | ||
| and | et | |||
| property | rem | |||
| motion | motus | |||
| moon | lune | |||
| becomes | fit | 3rd person sgl. | ||
| law | juriscon | |||
| descend | fluxcon | |||
| and | et | |||
| ascend | refluxcon | |||
| virile | marius | |||
| how | ut | |||
| philosopher | philosophus | 4th declension | ||
| before | proprietates | |||
| mathemetician | mathematicus | 4th declension |
Attachments
It seems to be getting worse. Just a quick look I can see at the end
fit diversus fluxus et refluxus marium
lune is a mediaeval spelling of lunae which you should now be able to parse
fit diversus fluxus et refluxus marium
lune is a mediaeval spelling of lunae which you should now be able to parse
The backwards 9 at then end of words is is. istis not iste and frigus not fricon
estas is a mediaeval spelling for aestas
Thank you, it appears I have made several errors including thinking the d is a j. I also left out some words. After generalia eorum there is et corrupt? eorum. General rhythm and corrupt rhythm?(pic) . Looking at that it could be eorrup? and not corrupt.
lune fit diversus fluxus et refluxus marium = month becomes opposite flow and ebb (of the) sea…
The 9 at the beginning of a word or end of a word is either con or is. Usually con at the beginning, is/us at the end as in connotandibus (pic). The backwards 9 is rum as eorum, or is/us as in aerius or icus (pic).
ut estas hiems etor = how summer storms advance?
I’m looking at the words I have identified as motus or motis. The first one ends with the 9, the next Three have the same ending as marium, looks like a d with the top swooping back over the previous letters (pic). Is the motus spelling for mode, and the motis spelling for motion? Is it rising sun, rising moon? Looking back at previous results it appears to be is or um, is it motium?
Another discrepency I have made is the word that looks like zm. I have regimen/guidance and rem/property. I must review my previous translations.It appeared at word 400 as regimen, you identified it as cum/with at word 400. That same sentence has vultus/face. That brings me to scrutinize uult/wish. uult philosophus = face of philosophy?
lune fit diversus fluxus et refluxus marium = month becomes opposite flow and ebb (of the) sea…
The 9 at the beginning of a word or end of a word is either con or is. Usually con at the beginning, is/us at the end as in connotandibus (pic). The backwards 9 is rum as eorum, or is/us as in aerius or icus (pic).
ut estas hiems etor = how summer storms advance?
I’m looking at the words I have identified as motus or motis. The first one ends with the 9, the next Three have the same ending as marium, looks like a d with the top swooping back over the previous letters (pic). Is the motus spelling for mode, and the motis spelling for motion? Is it rising sun, rising moon? Looking back at previous results it appears to be is or um, is it motium?
Another discrepency I have made is the word that looks like zm. I have regimen/guidance and rem/property. I must review my previous translations.
Attachments
I must confess that I am finding this quite difficult.
It looks like corrup
The final letters should be us rather than orum, but he might be conflating the two symbols
It could be et cetera
no. I don't think it is generalia, although it could be generalia eorum
It looks like corrup
The final letters should be us rather than orum, but he might be conflating the two symbols
lune is lunae of the moon, it does with motum, the motion of the moon
etor isn't a word
It could be et cetera
motis and motium are not words. It is motum solis
I haven't figured it out either. It could be cum, in which case it should be motibus following
“etor isn't a word”
etos go, walk; march, advance; pass; flow; pass(time); ride; be in the middle
etont? (they) advance?
g°=ergo so it could be ?eto
“motis and motium are not words. It is motum solis”
Isn’t motis the Ablative Plural of motum? Quod cum motis solis = that with movement sun?
“It could be cum, in which case it should be motibus following”
et cum motibus lune = and with movement moon? Where motibus is either Dative or Ablative plural third declension?
etos go, walk; march, advance; pass; flow; pass(time); ride; be in the middle
etont? (they) advance?
g°=ergo so it could be ?eto
“motis and motium are not words. It is motum solis”
Isn’t motis the Ablative Plural of motum? Quod cum motis solis = that with movement sun?
“It could be cum, in which case it should be motibus following”
et cum motibus lune = and with movement moon? Where motibus is either Dative or Ablative plural third declension?