Audet

john abshire

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Quintus in arborem ascendit; iam is supra marcum in arbore est. Marcus ipse in arborem ascendere non audet!

Quintus is climbing into the tree; now he is in the tree above Marcus. Marcus does not dare to climb into the tree!
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I think I answered my big question. Just before I posted I looked up the definition of audet. All day I had it confused with audit, thinking “how could Marcus not hear himself climb the tree and why does it matter anyway?”
 

kizolk

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I think I answered my big question.
You did!

You didn't translate "ipse" though, and I personally would've used different prepositions, but that's not really the point.
 

Pacifica

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All day I had it confused with audit, thinking “how could Marcus not hear himself climb the tree and why does it matter anyway?”
FYI, if you did want to say that unlikely thing in Latin, you'd need se instead of ipse.
 

john abshire

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FYI, if you did want to say that unlikely thing in Latin, you'd need se instead of ipse.
I did think of that but also wondered when ipsem would be used. I couldn’t think of an accusative himself that didn’t refer to the subject, maybe a preposition?
Birds are flying over him(self). Aves supra ipsum volant.
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Edit: (Ipsum was ipsem)
In the sentence above, would you use eum if you wanted to mean “him” instead of “himself”?
 
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cinefactus

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eum
volant refers to the birds, so it can't be se
 

Pacifica

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Aves supra ipsum volant is correct to mean "birds are flying over him himself/over him in person/over that very person".

Se is a reflexive pronoun, meaning that it's used essentially (let's forget about the nuances for now) when the subject acts upon itself. For example "he sees himself in the mirror" = se in speculo videt. Se, the object of videt, is the same as its subject, which acts upon it.

Ipse, on the other hand, isn't reflexive. It's an intensifier, stressing the identity of a person or thing as in "I saw the king himself" = regem ipsum vidi. "She did it herself" = ipsa fecit.

Compare:

Se in speculo videt = "he sees himself in the mirror."
Eum in speculo videt = "he sees him in the mirror."
Ipsum in speculo videt = "he sees him himself in the mirror/he sees that very man in the mirror." (It's like eum in speculo videt, but with more emphasis on the identity of the object.)
 
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Pacifica

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Note that a form of ipse can be added to se for emphasis, e.g. se ipsum in speculo videt = "he sees himself/his very self in the mirror." But the point is that, on its own, ipse isn't reflexive (so ipsum in speculo videt does not mean "he sees himself in the mirror" but rather what I stated in the previous post).
 

john abshire

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Note that a form of ipse can be added to se for emphasis, e.g. se ipsum in speculo videt = "he sees himself/his very self in the mirror." But the point is that, on its own, ipse isn't reflexive (so ipsum in speculo videt does not mean "he sees himself in the mirror" but rather what I stated in the previous post).
Ipsum in speculo videt. “He sees (the man) himself.” Where “the man” is understood.
Hominem Ipsum in speculo videt. “He sees the man himself.” Where “the man” is explicit.
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Pacifica

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I guess you can put it that way.
 

john abshire

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I guess you can put it that way.
I thought I understood completely, but reread above where you said that “ipsa fecit”= she did it herself. “she did it herself” really means “she herself did it.” So “ipsa” is the nominative feminine “self”. But there’s no “it”. It seems that you would write “ipsa id fecit.”?

Also, it is a little confusing because “ipsa” does refer to the subject (she herself) just like “se” (but I refreshed my memory that se is accusative and ablative; ie sui sibi se se).

And, Would “ipsa id se fecit” mean “she herself did it herself.”? And is “ipsa id ipsum fecit.” She herself did it itself.”?
 

Pacifica

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“she did it herself” really means “she herself did it.”
Not necessarily...
But there’s no “it”. It seems that you would write “ipsa id fecit.”?
It can be left implied.
Also, it is a little confusing because “ipsa” does refer to the subject (she herself) just like “se”
Yes, it refers to the subject, but the subject isn't acting on itself. She isn't doing something to herself. A reflexive pronoun would be used if she were.
(but I refreshed my memory that se is accusative and ablative; ie sui sibi se se).
Yes, and it has no nominative. For a good reason: it's used when the subject is acting on itself in some way, so it can only be some sort of object (in a broad sense: direct object, indirect object, object of a preposition...).
And, Would “ipsa id se fecit” mean “she herself did it herself.”?
No. It would mean "she (herself) made herself it." Se would be the direct object. You tried to use it as if it were nominative, which, as stated above, it can't be (you also used it as if it were intensive rather than reflexive).
And is “ipsa id ipsum fecit.” She herself did it itself.”?
Yes.
 

Pacifica

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I mean very literally. But if you were after a more natural translation, you'd often say something else, for instance "that very (same) thing" or "precisely that"... (the choice could depend on context).
 

john abshire

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I mean very literally. But if you were after a more natural translation, you'd often say something else, for instance "that very (same) thing" or "precisely that"... (the choice could depend on context).
Ipsam id ipsa fecit = she herself did it itself.
Ipsam ipsa fecit = she herself did it itself.
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Fecit = he did it.
Navigat = he sailed it
Are Fecit and Navigat sensible complete sentences on their own?
 
 

Godmy

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Making good progress with the chapters, as I see, John!

Ipsam id ipsa fecit = she herself did it itself.
Ipsam ipsa fecit = she herself did it itself.
Careful with the ipsam. Ipsam is feminine-accusative, while your English sentences imply you have "it" in accusative "did IT". "it(self)" would be "ipsum" (or perhaps verbously "id ipsum", though it doesn't sound very nice).
 

john abshire

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Note that navigat is present tense, and that verb only very rarely takes an object anyway (so one is unlikely to be implied).
Navigat=he is sailing.
Navigavit = he sailed
Ipse navem ipsam navigavit = he himself sailed the ship itself.
Navis se navigavit = the ship sailed itself.
 
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