And this connection got me good. Dammit, Virgil!

hic demum collectis omnibus una / defuit (2.743-4)

nomenque Creusae / solum defuerit (9.297-8)

- Thread starter AoM
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And this connection got me good. Dammit, Virgil!

hic demum collectis omnibus una / defuit (2.743-4)

nomenque Creusae / solum defuerit (9.297-8)

But for me, they do a good job of stressing the fact that this guy's lung(s) just got punctured, so he's gasping for almost every breath. So more of an indication of what's to come in the very next line.

And it's stuff like this that... urgh!

And instead of keeping the parallel and translating it as 'hollow', he goes with 'cavernous'.

I imagine if I asked him about it, the much-invoked goddess (as Knox puts it) "Context" would inevitably come into play.

3.686 - certum est dare lintea retro.

9.153 - luce palam certum est igni circumdare muros.

I like all these connections between the two - e.g.,

me bello e tanto digressum et caede recenti

attrectare nefas, donec me flumine vivo

abluero. (2.718-20)

____________ille suo cum gurgite flavo

accepit venientem ac mollibus extulit undis

et laetum sociis abluta caede remisit. (9.816-8)

"In the last four books of the

B

Finally got a copy of Hardie's commentary. He has some good bits in the introduction.

I've always found the question of how the Aeneid can be structured very interesting. There's the obvious split in 2 halves as a reference to Homer with 1-6 showing Aeneas's Odyssee (and his struggle with fate, until he finally accepts it) and 7-12 being Aeneas's Iliad (and the sealing of his fate).

However, you can also find the separation into 3 parts consisting of 4 books each, which I'd consider an attempt by Vergil to set himself apart from Homer. 1-4 would then obviously be Aneas in Carthago, 5-8 his landing in Italy and the preparation of the war, and 9-12 the actual war. I find it interesting to hear about the Odyssean subplot Hardie sees in 9-12, I haven't thought of that, yet.

Btw. scholars have tried to split Ovid's Metamorphoses into 12 parts to construct a certain reference to the Aeneid. While that is certainly possible, Ovid himself wrote about his epos as "

So Ovid also acknowledges the tripartition of the Aeneid (and sees a similar partition in his own work).

This idea of structure and division reminds me of Duckworth's... uh, interesting... book on the "Golden Mean ratio" in the Aeneid. Given my aversion to mathematics, I doubt I'll ever be picking up a copy lol.I haven't thought of that, yet.

Check out this description.

"m/M = M/(M + m) = 1/2 (v5 - 1) = .618 = the key to the most exciting discovery in the history of Vergilian criticism. As a result of intensive research and study in the poetry of Vergil, George Duckworth has made a remarkable find: Vergil, as well as other poets of his century, deliberately used the Golden Mean ratio to give mathematical symmetry to the structure of his poetry. The author gives a full and critical account of the scholarship, which up to now has been devoted to the construction of the Aeneid. In turn, he traces the Golden Mean ratio—famous in mathematics, art, and architecture—everywhere in the main divisions and subdivisions, in the short speeches, and in the long narrative units of the Aeneid. Duckworth proves with his data that consecutive units of the epic are proportionate to one another in the ratio .618. With the longer and shorter passages denoted as M (major) and m (minor), the exact ratio is: m/M = M/(M + m) = 1/2 (v5 - 1) = .618, being achieved most frequently by the Fibonacci series in which each number is the sum of the two preceding numbers. This extraordinary book provides a new awareness of the marvelous structure of Vergil's poetry. It is an essential text for resolving the disputed passages in Vergil. George Duckworth has pioneered a structural analysis that will not only make obsolete much Vergilian criticism but will, in addition, serve as a basis for future research."

Not sure exactly how you can find whether or not an ancient poet did something deliberately, but sure. Also I doubt it's really exactly .618; my guess would be that it's more just a general thing where structural changes happen around 3/5 of the way through.deliberately

Big promises here. Not sure if the book will live up to them. Now I kind of want to see what he's found, though, so I guess the advertising was a success?George Duckworth has pioneered a structural analysis that will not only make obsolete much Vergilian criticism but will, in addition, serve as a basis for future research.