How long have we been messing up Latin pronunciation?

[Akela]

Looking through old news stories, I found an article on Latin Pronunciation. I will post a couple of excerpts here and give you the reference at the end of my post.

The barbarous manner in which the Latin language is pronounced by the English has long been the subject of the animadversion of foreigners, and the regret of their own scholars.

The corruption of the pronunciation of Latin, which took place very gradually in England, has, within a recent period, been reduced to a system...

The learner is now informed, upon his first introduction into Latin, that the ancient pronunciation being in a great measure lost, the different nations follow, in their pronunciation of this language, the principles which govern that of their own. This is all the information that is afforded him at this period of his studies.

No hint is given him that the English pronunciation is Latin differs more from the ancient than that of the other nations of Europe. No means are furnished him of learning what points are doubtful in the ancient pronunciation, and what are ascertained. There is an absolute silence as to the proofs by which the correct sounds of the Roman letters have been established.

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Too familiar? Wait, you haven't heard anything yet. Do you know when it was published?






1849.





So, how long exactly have we been messing up Latin pronunciation?



Here is the complete reference:
The North American Review Volume 0068 Issue 143 (April 1849)
Pronunciation of the Latin Language [pp. 436-466]
In case the link does not work somehow, you can find it on Google News.

 

[Quasus]

Who do you mean with "we"?

The history of the pronunciation of Latin in England is outlined by Allen in an essay appended to his Vox Latina. Here it is:

 

[Akela]

Who do you mean with "we"?

Fine, fine. Russian-speakers are off the hook And Italians. And, probably Spanish and Portuguese :dancing:

 

[Quasus]

As well as Germans.

As far as I know, the French used to pronounce Latin in the way they would pronounce it in their own language (nasal vowels, qu = [k] and so on), but this pronounciation is obsolete now. Anyway it can hardly be compared to application of the Great Vowel Shift to Latin.

What do you mean by "sounds too familiar"? Can it really be true that nowadays an Anglophone pronounces vice versa as [vais vösa] in a Latin text (that is when not using this expression in English speech)?

 

[SuperSue]

Interesting! I have wondered this myself. Spanish and Italian have similarities in their language pronunciation (close enought that I can at least understand generally what is being said in Italian- I already speak Spanish) and while portuguese is also similar it is certainly different enough that it is difficult for me to understand a conversation in the language (it is much easier to read it, for me anyways). However I must admit that I am married to a Brazilian man so his portuguese is different from that spoken in Portugal. Still I work with some Romanian women and I can't make heads or tails of what they are saying? Do you think there were accents in Latin as there are in English (Southern, Boston, New York, Louisiana, etc.) ?

 

[Iohannes Aurum]

The accents in Latin evolved into different Romance languages, therefore, there are distinct accents in Latin as in English. Even some English accents, such as African American Vernacular English and Singapore English, evolved into Ebonics and Singlish, respectively as languages distinct from English, though this is debatable.

 

[metrodorus]

We know that that even within Rome itself there were different accents. For example, working class people pronounced the dipthong au as o, which is why Claudius called himself Clodius, being a populist and all.
The situation would have been similar, with much variation across Italy, even more across the Empire, but all this is besides the point, as the Latin that the grammarians described, and the pronunciation that we attempt to emulate was the Latin spoken by a sub-set of the Roman population who inhabited , (or aspired to inhabit) the environs of the Palatine Hill.

 

[Bitmap]

working class people

:roflred:

 

[Interficio]

Of the romance languages, I'd prefer pronunciation to sound simialr to formal spanish (non-iberian!) or romanian. I've heard both (actually Romanian sounds extremely close to Latin sometimes) and they don't have the eccentricity that the other romance languages seem to have in their pronunciation...

 

[Imprecator]

working class people

:roflred:

You do realize that the forerunner of French, Spanish, and Italian is not Classical Latin, but rather the language of the vulgares, whom you have just scoffed at, right?

 

[Bitmap]

no shit?

 

[Bitmap]

just to clear this up: The "working class" is something that came about with the Industrial Revolution, but nothing the Romans would have known of. When Claudius started calling himself Clodius, he adopted the pronunciation of the plebs...

 

[Akela]

Can it really be true that nowadays an Anglophone pronounces vice versa as [vais vösa] in a Latin text (that is when not using this expression in English speech)?

I have heard this more than once (from the lips of students). The professor would then jump in and correct the error.

However, the fact that such mistakes occur is a sign of insufficient prior-to-the-fact instruction. :solution:

 

[Imber Ranae]

working class people

:roflred:

You do realize that the forerunner of French, Spanish, and Italian is not Classical Latin, but rather the language of the vulgares, whom you have just scoffed at, right?

Non sequitur much?

 

[Imprecator]

just to clear this up: The "working class" is something that came about with the Industrial Revolution, but nothing the Romans would have known of. When Claudius started calling himself Clodius, he adopted the pronunciation of the plebs...

Ah, that's what you meant :laugh:

 

[Interficio]

Today a guy came to a Latin Club meeting who taught himself classical Latin (spoken) by reading endless lingustic books, literature, speaking to professors. At first I was impressed by the ellisions is reading Latin, the nasal sounds you soemtimes use, and overall pronunciation.
However this guy was clearly obsessed to a point where it was slightly disgusting. And some of you will wonder why I make so bold a statement, and trust me, I love Latin so much, but this guy just took things to a disturbing level. Sure he could speak classical Latin flawlessly but at the cost of what? Spending decades of his life buried in books to memorize these details? At leats I wouldn't have cared if this is what made him happy, but he was quite a condescending, unhappy person. I can't even bring myself to do my Latin homework or look at my books after listneing to him speak for 3 hours straight.
To me, this isn't what Laitn is about. Sure, grammar and pronunciation are important.. But who the hell honestly cares that you speak Latin perfectly, and how is that guy himself even sure he's correct? Latin to me, is about being linked to the traditions of an mazing civilization and understanding grammar so we can understand their literature, and as a result, the values of their societies and the common links that unite as humans across time.

I honestly don't know what to do now. I feel so disillusioned... and I know most of you probably won't understand why I feel so frustrated and disgusted, not having spent 3 hours in front of this man. I appreciate his knowlede and I respect him, but the extent of what he was doing just didn't seem alright to me. It bothered me.

 

[Quasus]

I feel so disillusioned... and I know most of you probably won't understand why I feel so frustrated and disgusted, not having spent 3 hours in front of this man.

I think I understand you quite well. It seems to me that pronunciation is perhaps the least important aspect of Latin (the language of European civilization), just take in account that so called classical pronunciation expired at the 2nd century A.D. and think of innumerable variations of pronunciation that existed in time and space. As for classical pronunciation, I like the way Allen deals with it: without fanaticism as one may say. Barbar accent is inevitable, anyway. Seriously, all sorts of Latin pronunciation are essentially conventional, and so is classical one, since Cicero won't ever estimate modern orators.

 

[Bitmap]

damn, I'd love to meet this guy

 

[Quasus]

damn, I'd love to meet this guy

The story made me think of Avitus, the head of Schola Latina Universalis, though I doubt it was he. You can listen to Avitus talking:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDg70dIbDUw[/youtube]

 

[Decimvs]

damn, I'd love to meet this guy

Reminds me of this video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c[/youtube]

(first part is in German however)

I have posted this video before, but I am posting it again since I adore it so much.