reperītur

From LLPSI: Fābellae Latīnae, capitulum 11:

Grūmiō: "Centum sēstertiōs! Tanta pecūnia apud mē in hāc tabernā nōn reperītur."

I find "nōn reperītur" phrase here unusual. (The structure that I am used to is as follows:
"Tanta pecūnia apud mē in hāc tabernā reperīrī nōn potest.") What do you think?
 

Pacifica

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What do you mean by being used to, Siegfried? In original Latin, textbook Latin or in another language?

Both sentences are grammatically correct. The one without potest sounded marginally better to me. I decided to do a search to see if it confirmed my feeling.

This site gave me seven examples of non reperitur and one of reperiri non potest (zero of non potest reperiri). The data isn't huge, but I guess we can still conclude that both constructions are correct but non reperitur is a little more frequent.

Non reperitur, literally "is not found" — for which you can also say in English "can't be found" or "is not to be found" — is basically an indirect way of saying "there isn't".
 
What do you mean by being used to, Siegfried? In original Latin, textbook Latin or in another language?
In textbook Latin, I guess, since I haven't read any "original" Latin. This distinction between textbook Latin and original Latin that you just made is really sad. Imagine you decide to learn some new language, for example, Russian. After spending weeks and months over Russian language textbooks, you are told by Russian native speakers that the real Russian is quite different and whatever you have been studying so far is not original enough. How would you feel towards people who put together your Russian language textbooks?

Both sentences are grammatically correct. The one without potest sounded marginally better to me. I decided to do a search to see if it confirmed my feeling.

This site gave me seven examples of non reperitur and one of reperiri non potest (zero of non potest reperiri). The data isn't huge, but I guess we can still conclude that both constructions are correct but non reperitur is a little more frequent.
We also have to look at the context/collocations that "nōn reperītur" is used in in those examples. I do not question that "nōn reperītur" is a valid Latin grammatical construction. I only felt it to be odd when used together with "pecūnia".

Non reperitur, literally "is not found" — for which you can also say in English "can't be found"
Wouldn't that be "reperīrī nōn potest", and if it is, then why not use it in Latin instead of "nōn reperītur"?
 

Pacifica

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The distinction we draw between original and textbook Latin doesn't mean textbook Latin is necessarily bad. Indeed, textbook Latin is a very necessary thing and, when good, it reflects fairly well most of the principles of real Latin.

But the distinction we draw is based mainly on two points:

First, texbook Latin often differs from original Latin in that it is simplified, except in quite advanced textbooks. The fact that it's simplified makes it feel rather unlike what you can read in actual Roman authors — just as textbook Russian would feel rather different from, say, Dostoevsky, right? But this is only natural. Students can't just jump right into complex language, so it's necessary to create more simple texts to teach them the basics. The teaching of all languages works like this.

Secondly, even the best modern Latinist will not be a native Latin speaker, therefore they can go wrong, even if it's only very occasionally and in very fine details.

Both of these facts make it so that textbook Latin can't be used as data to support theories about Latin (unless your claim is about texbook or modern Latin considered as a "dialect" in its own right).

Do you see what I mean?

This doesn't mean that we scorn textbook authors in general, but it just makes sense and I think Ørberg himself would have agreed with us. By the way, I think his Latin is very good.
 

Pacifica

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We also have to look at the context/collocations that "nōn reperītur" is used in in those examples. I do not question that "nōn reperītur" is a valid Latin grammatical construction. I only felt it to be odd when used together with "pecūnia".
Why would it be odder with pecunia than with another object?
Wouldn't that be "reperīrī nōn potest", and if it is, then why not use it in Latin instead of "nōn reperītur"?
Even though "can't be found" translates literally to reperiri non potest, non reperitur works in Latin in contexts where "can't be found" works in English. Different languages can express the same ideas differently.
 

Pacifica

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Secondly, even the best modern Latinist will not be a native Latin speaker, therefore they can go wrong
Someone could have argued, though no one did, that native speakers make mistakes as well. Reflecting on this, I came to formulate the following in my mind:

Native speakers make mistakes, non-native speakers make mistakes, and some mistakes are common to both; but, first, non-natives sometimes (well, to be honest, often) make much more mistakes than natives depending on the non-natives' level of proficiency, and secondly, there are mistakes that can be made pretty much only by non-native speakers. Maybe one can say that there are idiomatic and non-idiomatic mistakes... :D

For example:

Between you and I... = idiomatic mistake.
I watch at a movie = non-idiomatic mistake.

Now, it's also possible that from time to time a native speaker will make an utterly weird mistake that no other native speaker or at least very few of them could have made (especially if their mind is "contaminated" by another language; I think that may have happened to me...), and in that case it won't be an "idiomatic mistake", but this is less frequent.

Perhaps nobody argued because everyone got what I meant in the first place, even though it wasn't made explicit in my post.

I just felt like sharing these thoughts.
 
 

Matthaeus

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I totally agree. I hate how native speakers make the same mistakes over and over and over, like e.g. "I laid down" instead of "I lay down", or the ubiquitous "it's/its" or "may vs. can" dilemma, same thing can be said of Polish, but those are just a few examples off the top of my head. I mean, to me they're so fkn obvious! sorry for the rant
 

Pacifica

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The "lie-lay/lay-laid" and "its/it's" ones are obvious to me too, but I'm not sure about the "can/may" one. Aren't there many situations where either is acceptable? I'm not saying they're always interchangeable, but they feel so to me in a fair number of contexts, with perhaps just a slight nuance or difference of register or so.
 
 

Bestiola

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I totally agree. I hate how native speakers make the same mistakes over and over and over, like e.g. "I laid down" instead of "I lay down", or the ubiquitous "it's/its" or "may vs. can" dilemma, same thing can be said of Polish, but those are just a few examples off the top of my head. I mean, to me they're so fkn obvious! sorry for the rant
Amen to that!!!! :D
 
 

Matthaeus

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Of course they're not interchangeable, but maybe I'm a grammar nazi again, or a purist and pedant. "can" is used when ability is meant, and "may" for permission. So it's pointless asking e.g. "can I go to the bathroom", when of course even a five-year old IS ABLE to do that, without asking, but the thing is to ask for permission, if it's allowed
 
 

Matthaeus

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I love, or rather hate, when people get those two confused.
 

Pacifica

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I was under the impression that "may I..." was slightly more formal but that "can I..." could be considered correct too... :hide:

I think this must be one of those things that not even all grammarians agree on.
 
 

Matthaeus

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I was under the impression that "may I..." was slightly more formal but that "can I..." could be considered correct too... :hide:

I think this must be one of those things that not even all grammarians agree on.
Nope, it's been taught in grammar school where I went. There is a difference, for instance, in Latin licetne mihi and possum. Does that make it clearer?
 

Pacifica

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It was already clear, Matthaeus. I just thought "can" was accepted as an alternative.
 
 

Matthaeus

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colloquially, yes, but the illogicality ? of it still bothers me
 
 

Godmy

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You see, a native mistake is only when in the native's mind is X but he says Y.

But things like "lay" vs. "laid"...

Calling most of these native pronouncements mistakes is like telling the sun that it ought to shine a few degrees less. The sun does what the sun does... you can make outside descriptions of it and formulate some rules/regularities from your observation, but if the sun decides to do differently, you can just go and ... f.... film yourself! :D
 

Pacifica

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Well, it's true that it's nice to make a distinction between the two meanings.
 
 

Matthaeus

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A mistake is still a mistake, there's no excuse.
 
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